Innocent Persons Resisting Arrest

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1306134332' post='2244783']
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting"]School Shootings[/url]

It seems America's right to have guns is a great policy, the table just goes on and on and on.

You can name all the tyrants who were elected that you want. It does not show how giving the public guns would have deterred this.
[/quote]



What is that, 100 people shot in 45 years? In a country the size of the United States, that is nothing, less than a single village enslaved and massacered in the Congo.

With the exception of the U Texas shooting in 66 all of the college shootings could have been much less severe if there had been armed students in the building, these were adults, some of whom had a legal right to carry, but were forbiden in on Campus.

Compared to what happens to people in numerous counrties where the public is unarmed.... this is amazingly little.

[stevil]

Just collateral damage, nice, but at least you have your guns.
Anyway, I can see you are passionate about this right, if you can't see any problems with it, then that is not my problem, or my business for that matter.
I don't feel people are discussing the pros and cons here. Simply an argument. I am not interested in arguing for argument's sake.

Edit:
I'm not really sure why you can't see a problem, my first reference was school shootings, now I have just done a quick search for drive by shooting and find the following [url="http://www.vpc.org/studies/driveby.pdf"]Drive by shootings[/url]. Over a 6 month period, 549 drive by shootings, 156 dead, 465 injured.
I wonder how many accidental home deaths I could find, or neighbors being shot, or people in night clubs, or family feuds, or lover's tiffs, or hunting accidents...
And weigh this up against your hypothetical idea that the American government needs people to have guns otherwise they would be tyrants?
Many, many many democratic countires out there living without fear of needing guns to protect them from their own government.
Anyway, that's enough from me on this topic, I'm not trying to convince you that Americans shouldn't have guns. This is an American hot topic, not mine.

Edited May 23, 2011 by stevil

[Groo the Wanderer]

[img]http://www.nationalgunrights.org/images/gun-free-zone-cLR.jpg[/img]

[img]http://swissgunblog.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/gun-free-zone.jpg[/img]

[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3217/2322842458_3fe210df55.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.theodoresworld.net/pics/1208/duhImage1.jpg[/img]

[Winchester]

Stevil, I know you're busy with the other guys, but:
[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1306057726' post='2244446']
What if I refused to surrender my firearm?

Let me also add a detail--a second scenario to be answered separately. Let's suppose my possession of a firearm were discovered through a paper trail, and that my firearm was at home, locked away. How far would you have the government go in taking that weapon from my home?

For a third scenario, let us suppose that no one knows I have a firearm until I use it to defend my home from a violent and armed invader. What should be the consequence for my having a firearm, and should I face penalties for having harmed or killed a man in the act of attacking me on my own property?
[/quote]

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1306140119' post='2244793']
Just collateral damage, nice, but at least you have your guns.
Anyway, I can see you are passionate about this right, if you can't see any problems with it, then that is not my problem, or my business for that matter.
I don't feel people are discussing the pros and cons here. Simply an argument. I am not interested in arguing for argument's sake.

Edit:
I'm not really sure why you can't see a problem, my first reference was school shootings, now I have just done a quick search for drive by shooting and find the following [url="http://www.vpc.org/studies/driveby.pdf"]Drive by shootings[/url]. Over a 6 month period, 549 drive by shootings, 156 dead, 465 injured.
I wonder how many accidental home deaths I could find, or neighbors being shot, or people in night clubs, or family feuds, or lover's tiffs, or hunting accidents...
And weigh this up against your hypothetical idea that the American government needs people to have guns otherwise they would be tyrants?
Many, many many democratic countires out there living without fear of needing guns to protect them from their own government.
Anyway, that's enough from me on this topic, I'm not trying to convince you that Americans shouldn't have guns. This is an American hot topic, not mine.
[/quote]


There is nothing hypothetical about it, it has happened (even on your list of school shootings, Kent stae was military forces shooting into a college protest). and is happening more and more daily.

I find there are very few democracies which have any significant amout of freedom and are not armed.

Freedom of speech is heavely curtailed through out western Europe, sometimes s much so it is absurd, ( last month a singer was aressted in Britian for singing the song " everyone was kung fu fighting, it offended 2 chinese passers by) so is the right to Habeas Corpus, the right against unreasonable search and seziure, and many many others. state domination of the individuals life is the norm not the exception.

I do not concider most of the European Union to be free. From an american point of view, these are gross violations of the rights of a free man.

But that aside, how many examples of elected tyrannts are needed to know it is a real possiblity.

Of course that doesn't even include such things as a the right to self defense.

[stevil]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1306155091' post='2244831']
Stevil, I know you're busy with the other guys, but:

[/quote]

... Refer to post 171 in this thread.

BTW - When are you going to show your hand? I am only getting many questions from you, asking for hypothetical answers with regards to how I would appropriately deal with non compliance is somewhat unfair, given that I am not ruling a society and have not done the indepth study I would need if tasked for real with implementing a solution.

[Winchester]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1306177195' post='2244967']
... Refer to post 171 in this thread.


[/quote]
Argh. I scrolled through and completely missed it. Thanks.

[stevil]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1306168492' post='2244896']
From an american point of view, these are gross violations of the rights of a free man.

But that aside, how many examples of elected tyrannts are needed to know it is a real possiblity.

Of course that doesn't even include such things as a the right to self defense.
[/quote]
I am not an authority on world governance.

I know more about NZ and Australia than I know about Europe and America.

In NZ, some guns are legal, but are uncommon, shootings are rare. People don't go into malls or schools and start shooting, drive by shootings are rare. hunting accidents are more common.
In NZ guns are a privilege not a right. One must be licensed and pass a test and have a clear background check done. Pistols can only be owned if a person belongs to a gun club and the pistol can only travel between the home and the gun club.

We have freedom of speech as you highlight that America loves. We don't go to the extremes of West-Bro (although I don't know what would happen if someone did), we have a very small group of white racists in Christchurch and unfortunately they have the legal right to spread their message of hate [url="http://www.nzherald.co.nz/christchurch/news/article.cfm?l_id=187&objectid=10724703"]Anti-Chinese leaflets spark fear and anger[/url]

I don't see NZ or Australia being overrun by a tyrrant or by military, or governments thus far have been pretty benign.
Although our neighbor's Fiji have had (and currently are having) a couple of Military coups over the past 20 years, lead by racism against having an Indian voted in as prime minister.

Guns are not a human right. Guns are a technology, not a freedom such as (freedom, right to speak, equal opportunity) it is only America's Constitution that makes it a "right" for you.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1306178283' post='2244983']
Guns are not a human right. Guns are a technology, not a freedom such as (freedom, right to speak, equal opportunity) it is only America's Constitution that makes it a "right" for you.
[/quote]


Thank God for the American Constitution!



Now if only we could get the jackwagons in the government to follow it......

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1306178283' post='2244983']
I am not an authority on world governance.

I know more about NZ and Australia than I know about Europe and America.

In NZ, some guns are legal, but are uncommon, shootings are rare. People don't go into malls or schools and start shooting, drive by shootings are rare. hunting accidents are more common.
In NZ guns are a privilege not a right. One must be licensed and pass a test and have a clear background check done. Pistols can only be owned if a person belongs to a gun club and the pistol can only travel between the home and the gun club.

We have freedom of speech as you highlight that America loves. We don't go to the extremes of West-Bro (although I don't know what would happen if someone did), we have a very small group of white racists in Christchurch and unfortunately they have the legal right to spread their message of hate [url="http://www.nzherald.co.nz/christchurch/news/article.cfm?l_id=187&objectid=10724703"]Anti-Chinese leaflets spark fear and anger[/url]

I don't see NZ or Australia being overrun by a tyrrant or by military, or governments thus far have been pretty benign.
Although our neighbor's Fiji have had (and currently are having) a couple of Military coups over the past 20 years, lead by racism against having an Indian voted in as prime minister.

Guns are not a human right. Guns are a technology, not a freedom such as (freedom, right to speak, equal opportunity) it is only America's Constitution that makes it a "right" for you.
[/quote]


Self defense is a human right, part of the first right, the right which precedes all other rights--- the right to life.

Guns are indeed a technology, like medicine is a technology, when guns becme the dominate method of combat, thier possession became a human right, just as the possession and use of Antibiotics is a human right.

Both are a technology which allows defense of ones life and are the norm in thier respect areas of said defense, therefore, possession and use of them is a direct and natural part of the right to LIfe.

NZ is , as I said bfore, a very special place, very few places on earth are so idylic as NZ. However, if you ask a Maori about how beniegn the governments have been you migtht get a different answer.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1306184558' post='2245028']
Thank God for the American Constitution!



Now if only we could get the jackwagons in the government to follow it......
[/quote]

Amen!

[MithLuin]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1306184950' post='2245031']
Self defense is a human right, part of the first right, the right which precedes all other rights--- the right to life.

Guns are indeed a technology, like medicine is a technology, when guns became the dominate method of combat, their possession became a human right, [b]just as the possession and use of Antibiotics is a human right.[/b]

Both are a technology which allows defense of ones life and are the norm in their respective areas of said defense, therefore, possession and use of them is a direct and natural part of the right to Life.
[/quote]


Funny you should mention antibiotics. In the US, the use of antibiotics is controlled, so you shouldn't be able to get them without a prescription, which you can only get by visiting a doctor who will check your symptoms first. If the doctor determines that you don't need antibiotics, he won't right you a prescription, and you won't be able to get them.


In much of Latin America, antibiotics are over-the-counter, so anyone can walk up to a pharmacy and request them.

And guess what? Antibiotics don't really work very well there. Why? The bacterial infections have built up resistance to the antibiotics because of [i]patient misuse[/i]. If you take your antibiotics until you feel better, but don't finish the regimen, you are leaving alive some bacteria who can survive expose to that drug. These bacteria will in turn multiply and spread....

Antibiotic resistance is a problem in the US, too (people here don't finish their bottle of pills either), but not nearly as bad there, where antibiotics are [i]not[/i] a controlled substance.

Untrained fools owning guns does nothing for the overall protection of the right to life. Because, not surprisingly, guns can be used to kill people by those with less-than-innocent intentions.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1306186604' post='2245046']
Funny you should mention antibiotics. In the US, the use of antibiotics is controlled, so you shouldn't be able to get them without a prescription, which you can only get by visiting a doctor who will check your symptoms first. If the doctor determines that you don't need antibiotics, he won't right you a prescription, and you won't be able to get them.


In much of Latin America, antibiotics are over-the-counter, so anyone can walk up to a pharmacy and request them.

And guess what? Antibiotics don't really work very well there. Why? The bacterial infections have built up resistance to the antibiotics because of [i]patient misuse[/i]. If you take your antibiotics until you feel better, but don't finish the regimen, you are leaving alive some bacteria who can survive expose to that drug. These bacteria will in turn multiply and spread....

Antibiotic resistance is a problem in the US, too (people here don't finish their bottle of pills either), but not nearly as bad there, where antibiotics are [i]not[/i] a controlled substance.

Untrained fools owning guns does nothing for the overall protection of the right to life. Because, not surprisingly, guns can be used to kill people by those with less-than-innocent intentions.
[/quote]
Actually antibiotics are not controlled substances, they most certianly can be bought and sold with out a prescription. This is a common myth, but it simply is not true.

Pharmacies wil not usually sell them to you without a prescription, but it is quite legal to buy and sell them. Back when I was raising Great Dames Idid it all the time. Believe it or not,Ihad more than one prescription from walgreens that was from the same lot of production as those I bought for my dog.

That antibiotics lose thier efficacy when overused is not a relevent arguement.... unless you can show that people are developing a resistance to high velocity lead projectiles do to their over use.

The fact is, that protecting your life is an intrical part of the right to life.THus, you have the basic human right to possess what is needed to protect it. That does not mean it must be supplied to you ( I know no one said it did,but I am heading off that line of arguement now) it means you have the right to aquire it and own it.

Over all protecton? what does that mea anyway... one individually has the right to defend ones own life. THis right is not dependent on any corporate right or overall right, it is an individuals right.

[MithLuin]

Yes, and the fool shooting you is taking it away from you.


My point was that regulating who uses the antibiotic and when is important for the good of society. I wasn't suggesting that gun ownership was a direct parallel, but rather that something that might protect your life in one circumstance can endanger it in others. Just as water is both necessary to every living being...and deadly as well. So, regulating the possession of guns can have merit.


Off to kendo practice. I'll take your ninjas and raise you a samurai!

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1306188976' post='2245069']
Yes, and the fool shooting you is taking it away from you.


My point was that regulating who uses the antibiotic and when is important for the good of society. I wasn't suggesting that gun ownership was a direct parallel, but rather that something that might protect your life in one circumstance can endanger it in others. Just as water is both necessary to every living being...and deadly as well. So, regulating the possession of guns can have merit.


Off to kendo practice. I'll take your ninjas and raise you a samurai!
[/quote]

If such training was provided by the government free of charge, or very cheap I would have no problem with it.

IthinkGun safty should be taught in schoo, and more than " lf you find a gun go tell an adult". Thats good advice for a Kindergartener, but an 8th grader should be able to clear a variety of weapons , and make them safe.

We telllittle kids nott to play with matches, but we don't expect a 14 year old to not be able to use fire.... why would we expect the same with a gun.

Edited May 23, 2011 by Don John of Austria