Innocent Persons Resisting Arrest

[stevil]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1306033231' post='2244391']
And if I don't consent and carry a weapon, what would you have done to me?
[/quote]
Creation of societies rules and consequences is a very serious and important aspect. Ideally much data should be gathered and evaluated before comming up with this stuff and putting it in place on a society.

My off the cuff response to your question would be that your gun is to be confiscated, and you are to be questioned as to the reason for possessing the gun. If the gun is a people killer then I would impose more serious consequence, if it is to hunt pests e.g. rabbits then less consequence, if you are multiple offender then more consequence.

Let's say for example, you have a .22 calbre for hunting rabbits on your farm, then I would impose a monetary fine and conviscate the weapon, if it was against the law for civilians to own guns.

[The Shover Robot]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1306033002' post='2244387']
I would say limiting to the government controlled and trained armies, and to a few trained and trusted police , seems reasonable.
[/quote]

When that government turns corrupt, and looking back on history you know it will, what is there to protect the life and liberty of the people?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1306033002' post='2244387']
My preference would be that no-one carries guns. No wars, no shoot outs, no hunting, no gun sports.
My stance is simply because guns are leathal and diplomatic avenues are best sought rather than killing people with different POVs.
However, the world isn't that simple. People are sometimes very determined with a political view. Some criminals will do what it takes to defy the law.
So Armies must be created, armed and trained, police forces must be created, armed and trained.

I see preventative measures as being more effective than simply trying to deal with the aftermath. So a strong gun control, border control is necessary.

I don't trust the average untrained, unevaluated civilian with a gun. Accidents happen all the time, people get angry, depressed and desperate all the time.

I would say limiting to the government controlled and trained armies, and to a few trained and trusted police , seems reasonable.
[/quote]


New zealand is a very differant place than the US, no big predators, no bordering states, nothing like the US. Further, though your country is 100,000 sq miles your population is only about that of the Houston Metropoliton area.

My parents live in the country, in the last year they have had direct confrontations with both a mountian lion, and a charging Feral Sow. Both are very large dangerous animals which would require a large caliber weapon to bring down, a ba no nfirearms would make huge portions of the country literally unlivable.
Even if that were not the case, guns are the great equalizers, they allow the weak to resist the strong.

My father comes in to town to work, and stays with my family several days a week, a couple of years ag there was a rapist atttacking women in the rural area in which they live, he was targetting women over 60. My mother, was quite worried about it but he was finally stopped by an 84 year old women who had a pistol, and was not afraid to shoot him.


Guns allow the populace to resist the oppression of the government, whatever people may say about a militia fighting a modern army, there is no way that you could ever commit the slaughters in America that have been done in other countries, becuase the everyday person is armed.

I hunt, and I need firearms for that, but that is not why I would not part with them firearms are the thing that gaurantees that the government has to really think before it steps too far out of line, and on that score I would never consent to give them up.

[Winchester]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1306037775' post='2244423']
Creation of societies rules and consequences is a very serious and important aspect. Ideally much data should be gathered and evaluated before comming up with this stuff and putting it in place on a society.

My off the cuff response to your question would be that your gun is to be confiscated, and you are to be questioned as to the reason for possessing the gun. If the gun is a people killer then I would impose more serious consequence, if it is to hunt pests e.g. rabbits then less consequence, if you are multiple offender then more consequence.

Let's say for example, you have a .22 calbre for hunting rabbits on your farm, then I would impose a monetary fine and conviscate the weapon, if it was against the law for civilians to own guns.
[/quote]
What if I refused to surrender my firearm?

Let me also add a detail--a second scenario to be answered separately. Let's suppose my possession of a firearm were discovered through a paper trail, and that my firearm was at home, locked away. How far would you have the government go in taking that weapon from my home?

For a third scenario, let us suppose that no one knows I have a firearm until I use it to defend my home from a violent and armed invader. What should be the consequence for my having a firearm, and should I face penalties for having harmed or killed a man in the act of attacking me on my own property?

[stevil]

[quote name='The Shover Robot' timestamp='1306047693' post='2244440']
When that government turns corrupt, and looking back on history you know it will, what is there to protect the life and liberty of the people?
[/quote]
The pen is mightier than the sword. One simple tick in the ballot box is enough to bring down the reigning power.

[stevil]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1306057726' post='2244446']
What if I refused to surrender my firearm?
[/quote]
Jail time I suppose

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1306057726' post='2244446']
Let me also add a detail--a second scenario to be answered separately. Let's suppose my possession of a firearm were discovered through a paper trail, and that my firearm was at home, locked away. How far would you have the government go in taking that weapon from my home?
[/quote]
A letter at first asking you to turn the firearm into the police station also notifying you of the evidence that you have a firearm and the procedure for you to contest such evidence.
If you refused to reply then an officer would pay you a visit to discuss the matter, if you still refused to comply you would get a summons to appear in court.
If you still refused to comply the court proceedings would go ahead without you, with no defence you would be found guilty.
You would then get a court orded demand to turn in the gun along with a monetary charge.
If you failed to comply then jail time.
(All guess work, I don't know the correct procedure)

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1306057726' post='2244446']
For a third scenario, let us suppose that no one knows I have a firearm until I use it to defend my home from a violent and armed invader. What should be the consequence for my having a firearm, and should I face penalties for having harmed or killed a man in the act of attacking me on my own property?
[/quote]
This is tricky, you would be done for possession of a firearm at the very least. If the attacker had no weapons then you would likely be done for manslaughter. If they had a gun or knife then it would be self defence.

Let's say your young child found your gun, played with it and killed him/herself. You would be done for possession of a firearm, and manslaughter.
Let's say you went deer hunting and mistakenly killed a person, you would be done for manslaugher as well as possession of a firearm.

BTW, I don't know if this is real or not and I don't know if this applies in your country but I did read once that if you have a gun stored at home you are much more likely to have a family member killed by gunshot than if you don't keep a gun at home. Which makes sense to me, if you don't have a gun then their won't be an accidental shooting.

[stevil]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1306048440' post='2244441']
My parents live in the country, in the last year they have had direct confrontations with both a mountian lion, and a charging Feral Sow. Both are very large dangerous animals which would require a large caliber weapon to bring down, a ba no nfirearms would make huge portions of the country literally unlivable.
[/quote]
Yes, possibly some types of guns should be allowed. Shotguns, 0.22 maybe 0.308
certainly not pistols or automatic assault rifles e.g. M16, AK47...
The person needs a license, needs to be assessed, trained and pass an exam.

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1306048440' post='2244441']
Even if that were not the case, guns are the great equalizers, they allow the weak to resist the strong.
[/quote]
Not if you have slow reactions and unsteady hands. I feel the court system is a better equaliser.

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1306048440' post='2244441']
My father comes in to town to work, and stays with my family several days a week, a couple of years ag there was a rapist atttacking women in the rural area in which they live, he was targetting women over 60. My mother, was quite worried about it but he was finally stopped by an 84 year old women who had a pistol, and was not afraid to shoot him.
[/quote]
Pepper spray may have done the trick. I don't condone shoot outs or vigilante behaviour. Too easy to wind up dead or wind up killing an unsuspecting bystander, bullets can travel quite a distance.


[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1306048440' post='2244441']
I hunt, and I need firearms for that, but that is not why I would not part with them firearms are the thing that gaurantees that the government has to really think before it steps too far out of line, and on that score I would never consent to give them up.
[/quote]
You have much more distrust and fear of your government than I do of mine.

Edited May 22, 2011 by stevil

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1306058101' post='2244447']
The pen is mightier than the sword. One simple tick in the ballot box is enough to bring down the reigning power.
[/quote]


Do you really believe that? Hitler was elected, so was The Duce, the very long list of currupt rulers of mexico, almost all of them were elected.


Democracy only works as long as those with the guns say it works.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]Not if you have slow reactions and unsteady hands. I feel the court system is a better equaliser.[/quote]

The court system is the domain of the rich, it is not and has never been an equalizer. Certianly it will not equalize my wife to an attacker,nor me to 3 or 4 men.
NEw Zealanders didn't even hav the ability to challenge unlawfuldetention in court until this century ( I can't remember the yer, I think it was 2001) How could you ever trust the courts.

[quote]Pepper spray may have done the trick. I don't condone shoot outs or vigilante behaviour. Too easy to wind up dead or wind up killing an unsuspecting bystander, bullets can travel quite a distance.[/quote]
May have? Small comfort to the elderly women he was beating and raping. Pepper spray is not that impressive really, have you ever had peper spray on you? It hurts, a lot, but it is not a disabling thing, not at all.

I don't think shooting someone who is attacking you is a vigilante thing at all. In fact I would say it is the expression of the most basic human right there is, the right to live.

[quote]You have much more distrust and fear of your government than I do of mine.[/quote] That may be, but I think hisptory hsas shown there is good reason to be afraid of people when they have all the power. If only the military has guns, then the military IS the government.

[The Shover Robot]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1306094641' post='2244521']
Do you really believe that? Hitler was elected, so was The Duce, the very long list of currupt rulers of mexico, almost all of them were elected.


Democracy only works as long as those with the guns say it works.
[/quote]

The Presidents of Syria and Iran were elected too.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='The Shover Robot' timestamp='1306108002' post='2244618']
The Presidents of Syria and Iran were elected too.
[/quote]


Oh it doesn't stop there, the list is quite cumbersome if you wanted to put every tyrrant who had the mandate of the people via the ballot box.

[Amppax]

*nevermind

Edited May 23, 2011 by Amppax

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1306109978' post='2244635']
*nevermind
[/quote]
well that is no fun at all

[The Shover Robot]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1306109978' post='2244635']
*nevermind
[/quote]

I'm just going to assume that this post was about kicking people in the groin.

I agree! More people need to be kicked in the groin.

[stevil]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting"]School Shootings[/url]

It seems America's right to have guns is a great policy, the table just goes on and on and on.

You can name all the tyrants who were elected that you want. It does not show how giving the public guns would have deterred this.