Innocent Persons Resisting Arrest

[Don John of Austria]

Please feel free to expand on your answer, I didn't give a maybe on purpose.

One either has the right or one doesn't, if you believe that you do in certian circumstances that is not a maybe.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I don't know how to vote in the poll but I can imagine scenarios in which I'd feel obliged to resist arrest. Extreme example: agents of the State come to take my family to the concentration camp or gulags. Other example: corrupt small town police department or individual officer who I know has an ax to grind (maybe I'm black and he's a KKK type). In such a context I could imagine particular scenarios which wouldn't be too pretty and I think respect for the uniform only goes so far. It would have to be a pretty extreme and grave situation though, without any means of recourse available.

Another example: I once heard a story of someone who was pulled over, threatened with fabricated crimes, and told that she would be let go only if she gave said officer oral sex. If I were in a similar situation I'd treat the guy like I'd treat any rapist thug with a gun.

Anyway, what were you thinking on this? Maybe my examples are too extreme?

Edited May 15, 2011 by Laudate_Dominum

[CatherineM]

If the officers are acting in good faith, I don't believe you have the right to resist. If the arrest is in error, it will get sorted out. I had fears of this happening to me when I had a identity theft. I was afraid of getting arrested because of something the other person did in my name. Resisting is attacking someone who is simply doing their job.

If the officers aren't acting in good faith, I might resist, but can't imagine using deadly force unless it is a nazi/concentration camp situation.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1305485028' post='2241902']
If the officers are acting in good faith, I don't believe you have the right to resist. If the arrest is in error, it will get sorted out. I had fears of this happening to me when I had a identity theft. I was afraid of getting arrested because of something the other person did in my name. Resisting is attacking someone who is simply doing their job.

If the officers aren't acting in good faith, I might resist, but can't imagine using deadly force unless it is a nazi/concentration camp situation.
[/quote]
word. i agree with this post.

[stevil]

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. It is not the police officer's job to presume guilt.
If you are resisting arrest even if innocent then you are obstructing justice.

[havok579257]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1305485028' post='2241902']
If the officers are acting in good faith, I don't believe you have the right to resist. If the arrest is in error, it will get sorted out. I had fears of this happening to me when I had a identity theft. I was afraid of getting arrested because of something the other person did in my name. Resisting is attacking someone who is simply doing their job.

If the officers aren't acting in good faith, I might resist, but can't imagine using deadly force unless it is a nazi/concentration camp situation.
[/quote]


i have to agree with the above. honest mistakes happen. the thing for an officer is, he hears all the time that the person he is arresting is not guilty. so just telling an officer your not guilty would not work. like catherine said, if the officer is arresting you in good faith, there is no reason to resist. things will get sorted out.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1305485028' post='2241902']
If the officers are acting in good faith, I don't believe you have the right to resist. If the arrest is in error, it will get sorted out. I had fears of this happening to me when I had a identity theft. I was afraid of getting arrested because of something the other person did in my name. Resisting is attacking someone who is simply doing their job.

If the officers aren't acting in good faith, I might resist, but can't imagine using deadly force unless it is a nazi/concentration camp situation.
[/quote]


So your positition is that one is obliged to surrender, both ones liberty and right of self defense, if the officer is acting in good faith and truely trying to administer justice?
This i not an arguement, only an attempt at clarification.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Don John of Austria

[CatherineM]

It's not about police officers assuming everyone is guilty. They are paid to do a job. A sometimes dangerous job that is so difficult that cops have a higher rate of divorce, suicide, ptsd, and chemical abuse than the common individual.

I wouldn't go into a fast food joint and purposely throw my food on the floor to make the worker responsible for cleaning the floors more difficult. I wouldn't go to the doctor's office an refuse an xray or blood test to make his job harder. I don't mushy mud pie on the floor in a public toilet to make a janitor's job harder. So, why would I resist arrest purposely making a cop's job harder. Not only does it make their job harder, I also risk being injured, or injuring the officer. For what? To show I'm right, or tougher than the cop? Part of being a good citizen is following the law, and their are legitimate, reasonable laws against resisting arrest.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1305493289' post='2241937']
It's not about police officers assuming everyone is guilty. They are paid to do a job. A sometimes dangerous job that is so difficult that cops have a higher rate of divorce, suicide, ptsd, and chemical abuse than the common individual.

I wouldn't go into a fast food joint and purposely throw my food on the floor to make the worker responsible for cleaning the floors more difficult. I wouldn't go to the doctor's office an refuse an xray or blood test to make his job harder. I don't mushy mud pie on the floor in a public toilet to make a janitor's job harder. So, why would I resist arrest purposely making a cop's job harder. Not only does it make their job harder, I also risk being injured, or injuring the officer. For what? To show I'm right, or tougher than the cop? Part of being a good citizen is following the law, and their are legitimate, reasonable laws against resisting arrest.
[/quote]


But if i go to a fast food joint and on't like the food, I am not having my freedom taken away, nor am I giving up my right to self defence. Once I have been arrested my life is totally in the hands of the state. I have surrendered my basic human rights to life and liberty.

Is making the cops life easier a real reason to do that? Am I obliged to surrender even though I know I did not do what I am accused of?

IF so, why?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1305488050' post='2241908']
Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. It is not the police officer's job to presume guilt.
If you are resisting arrest even if innocent then you are obstructing justice.
[/quote]


So you have noright of self defence against the State?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305488284' post='2241909']
i have to agree with the above. honest mistakes happen. the thing for an officer is, he hears all the time that the person he is arresting is not guilty. so just telling an officer your not guilty would not work. like catherine said, if the officer is arresting you in good faith, there is no reason to resist. things will get sorted out.
[/quote]


I am not asking about the officer, of course he is obliged to try and make the arrest becuase he does not know whether or not the person did it. I don't think that he has anything to do with it.
Assuming the officer is acting in in good faith, your postition is that you are obliged to submit to arrest?

[stevil]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305493814' post='2241943']
So you have noright of self defence against the State?
[/quote]
Depends on the situation. If the officer tells you what you are being detained for, asks you to co-operate and informs that you are required to go accompany them to the police station, then you oblige.

If the officer gets out his/her trunchon and starts beating you when you have no weapons and have not provoked then you have a right to defend yourself. Police are a group of people and amongst any group of people you tend to have corruption and nasty elements.

However, for society to function you must go into the situation with a level of trust and respect for the officer. If it goes to court, the judge will likely support the officer's word more than yours.

Edited May 15, 2011 by stevil

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1305496881' post='2241982']
Depends on the situation. If the officer tells you what you are being detained for, asks you to co-operate and informs that you are required to go accompany them to the police station, then you oblige.

If the officer gets out his/her trunchon and starts beating you when you have no weapons and have not provoked then you have a right to defend yourself. Police are a group of people and amongst any group of people you tend to have corruption and nasty elements.

However, for society to function you must go into the situation with a level of trust and respect for the officer. If it goes to court, the judge will likely support the officer's word more than yours.
[/quote]


So if he comes to arrest you and says , you are being arrested for the murder of such and such, please put your hands up agianst the wall, and then procedes to begin to cuff you, you are obiged to go quitly, even if you did not murder such and such?


This is true even though once you surrender you are completly in the states power and unable tofurther defend yourself, as well as no longer at liberty?

Agian no arguement being made here, just trying to clarify peoples position.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Don John of Austria

[havok579257]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305494072' post='2241947']
I am not asking about the officer, of course he is obliged to try and make the arrest becuase he does not know whether or not the person did it. I don't think that he has anything to do with it.
Assuming the officer is acting in in good faith, your postition is that you are obliged to submit to arrest?
[/quote]


my position is it is wrong to resist arrest and get into a fight with an officer and injure him when he is only doing his job. you are obliged to submit to arrest if the officer is acting in good faith. its no different than anything else in america. you are obliged to go thru medal detectors and possible pat downs at government buildings if the security says so. just you are are obliged to pay taxes to the government.

its as simple as this, with any job there are mistakes made. i think you would agree. just like there are mistakes at trial and an innocent man is put into prison. although just because the man is innocent does not give him the right to attack and injure guards in an escape attempt.

that is the way a state, any state is run. without law enforcement having any authority, then a society would crumble. murders, rapists, child molesters and such could commit crimes and get away with it. for any, i repeat any state to properly function the law enforcement needs to have some form of authority over the citizens. if not, then let anarchy rule and let it be last man standing.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305497727' post='2241985']
my position is it is wrong to resist arrest and get into a fight with an officer and injure him when he is only doing his job. you are obliged to submit to arrest if the officer is acting in good faith. its no different than anything else in america. you are obliged to go thru medal detectors and possible pat downs at government buildings if the security says so. just you are are obliged to pay taxes to the government.

its as simple as this, with any job there are mistakes made. i think you would agree. just like there are mistakes at trial and an innocent man is put into prison. although just because the man is innocent does not give him the right to attack and injure guards in an escape attempt.

that is the way a state, any state is run. without law enforcement having any authority, then a society would crumble. murders, rapists, child molesters and such could commit crimes and get away with it. for any, i repeat any state to properly function the law enforcement needs to have some form of authority over the citizens. if not, then let anarchy rule and let it be last man standing.
[/quote]

Well America or China makes no difference as long as we are talking abouta crime which violates the Natural Law the morality would be the same.


So you have no right to self defence against the state. As long as the state is trying to fulfill the correct duties of the state you must submit even at the cost of your liberty, or potentially much worse than that?