Winchester Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305494294' post='2241950'] No, but we are obliged to tell people that certian behaviors, actions and beliefs will lead on to Hell. For example I do not know where Stalin ended up, becuase I am not God who makes such Judgements. I am obliged to tell people that being a faithless mass murdering apostate will send you to Hell. One is individual, one is general. [/quote] I fully agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305494294' post='2241950'] No, but we are obliged to tell people that certian behaviors, actions and beliefs will lead on to Hell. For example I do not know where Stalin ended up, becuase I am not God who makes such Judgements. I am obliged to tell people that being a faithless mass murdering apostate will send you to Hell. One is individual, one is general. [/quote] If there is a hell, then I agree that being a mass murderer would warrant such as place. As for unbelievers, I do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 (edited) [quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1305502316' post='2242013'] If there is a hell, then I agree that being a mass murderer would warrant such as place. As for unbelievers, I do not. [/quote] You are entitled to your opinion. It does not jive with Catholic Dogma or any Christian Dogma I know of. However, Catholic teaching leaves open that nonbeleivers who truly were "invincibly ignorant" meaning it was not possible for them to learn the truth becuase of the circumstances of thier life they they certianly would not merit Hell. God being all just would not beaver dam those who hasd no real oppurtunity to learn of Him. Of course only he knows who is truely invincibly ignorant. Edit: that is of course assuming they did not deserve damnation for other reasons. Edited May 15, 2011 by Don John of Austria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305502748' post='2242015'] You are entitled to your opinion. It does not jive with Catholic Dogma or any Christian Dogma I know of. However, Catholic teaching leaves open that nonbeleivers who truly were "invincibly ignorant" meaning it was not possible for them to learn the truth becuase of the circumstances of thier life they they certianly would not merit Hell. God being all just would not beaver dam those who hasd no real oppurtunity to learn of Him. Of course only he knows who is truely invincibly ignorant. Edit: that is of course assuming they did not deserve damnation for other reasons. [/quote] Yes, I know it doesn't jive with many religious doctrines in fact, not just limited to Catholics or Christians, and they're all entitled to their opinions too. I just don't see how not believing in something for honest reasons can be seen as so evil and warranting infinite damnation. I don't not believe in a particular version of god because I don't want to. I just can't...just as I can't choose to begin seeing the sky as pink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 [quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1305503514' post='2242024'] Yes, I know it doesn't jive with many religious doctrines in fact, not just limited to Catholics or Christians, and they're all entitled to their opinions too. I just don't see how not believing in something for honest reasons can be seen as so evil and warranting infinite damnation. I don't not believe in a particular version of god because I don't want to. I just can't...just as I can't choose to begin seeing the sky as pink. [/quote] Well A Calvinist would say you were predestined to be damned. AS a Catholic I don't believe that, I think that you simply hae not accepted the Gift of Faith. Since ibelieve that the Gift of Faith is offered freely to all I do not see the potential of damnation for lack of beleif as unjust. Sad, but not unjust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305504317' post='2242032'] Well A Calvinist would say you were predestined to be damned. AS a Catholic I don't believe that, I think that you simply hae not accepted the Gift of Faith. Since ibelieve that the Gift of Faith is offered freely to all I do not see the potential of damnation for lack of beleif as unjust. Sad, but not unjust. [/quote] I think that they would also say that if you're not well off in life, then that's a sure sign of afterlife damnation too which is quite a spin on 'only the meek will go to heaven' and that it's easier for a camel to pass through the hole of a needle than it is for a rich man to get into heaven' and stuff of that nature. I don't know. It just seems odd to me. If someone were to knock on your door and say that you should start believing in Zeus and hand you a book full of Zeus' works and all about his character and life would you start believing in him? If not, then why? And why the enfasis on faith? Why does faith ultimately override everything else as a final decider? You could be just as good a person as the next guy or even better, but ultimately if you don't beleive then you're eternally damned. Also, why does [i]every group[/i] (not restricted to Christians) which hold the belief that you need faith to get into a heaven, believe that [i]they're[/i] the chosen people of the [i]one[/i] god which is [i]their[/i] god? It just doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1305488594' post='2241912'] Sell all his worldly possessions, give the money to her, lock him up in prison for 10 years or so, he also needs to do 1,000 hours of community service helping burns victims, then for the rest of his life he has to give 60% of his earnings to her. If she dies before him then his earnings continue to go to her next of kin or to charity. Sound like a better option than burning his eyes out? [/quote] I guess having the state take every single thing the man ownes, tear him away from his family, lock him in a cage for ten years with other violent men, subject him to the psychological trauma of working with burn victims, and afterwards set him up in an economic system pretty much assuring that he will spend the rest of his life in fairly harsh poverty is a much more enlightened path. You're punishment is just as vindictive and harsh as the one he was given. It's just not as honest. Edited May 16, 2011 by Hasan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 [quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1305504960' post='2242037'] I think that they would also say that if you're not well off in life, then that's a sure sign of afterlife damnation too which is quite a spin on 'only the meek will go to heaven' and that it's easier for a camel to pass through the hole of a needle than it is for a rich man to get into heaven' and stuff of that nature. I don't know. It just seems odd to me. If someone were to knock on your door and say that you should start believing in Zeus and hand you a book full of Zeus' works and all about his character and life would you start believing in him? If not, then why? And why the enfasis on faith? Why does faith ultimately override everything else as a final decider? You could be just as good a person as the next guy or even better, but ultimately if you don't beleive then you're eternally damned. Also, why does [i]every group[/i] (not restricted to Christians) which hold the belief that you need faith to get into a heaven, believe that [i]they're[/i] the chosen people of the [i]one[/i] god which is [i]their[/i] god? It just doesn't make sense. [/quote] Of course it makes sense. No one belongs to anything they think is the wrong way. Why woul you beling to a religion that youdidn't thinkwas the correct one? what king of rationality is that? And from a Catholic perspective Faith does not override everything, one cannot besaved without faith,but one cannot be saved if you are unrepentant of mortal sin either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305505273' post='2242041'] Of course it makes sense. No one belongs to anything they think is the wrong way. Why would you belong to a religion that you didn't think was the correct one? what king of rationality is that? And from a Catholic perspective Faith does not override everything, one cannot be saved without faith,but one cannot be saved if you are unrepentant of mortal sin either. [/quote] Well obviously, but just because people think or feel something is correct, doesn't mean that it is. Things like 'common sense' have been proven to be inadequate even after years of people believing in them because they made sense to them. I just think the over emphasis on faith set off alarm bells. If you choose to have faith in a religion that's fine, but when you start telling others that they have to in order to reach a reward on the scale that is heaven in contrast with hell, then it really doesn't make sense. Well, it does when you talk about manipulative control and cult tactics. Then it makes perfect sense. Why would a god [i]need[/i] faith? Does a god depend on it to need or want it so badly? Would a supposedly perfect being be so insecure? Edited May 16, 2011 by xSilverPhinx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 God need s nothing. God requires faithamong other things. If you reject His gift then you reject Him. With that rejection you reject heaven, and choose hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305578444' post='2242482'] God need s nothing. God requires faithamong other things. If you reject His gift then you reject Him. With that rejection you reject heaven, and choose hell. [/quote] That's what I'm talking about... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudreyGrace Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 [quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1305577655' post='2242477'] Well obviously, but just because people think or feel something is correct, doesn't mean that it is. [/quote] If I may ask, what are your thoughts on moral relativism? do you think there is such thing as an absolute truth? [quote]Why would a god [i]need[/i] faith? Does a god depend on it to need or want it so badly? Would a supposedly perfect being be so insecure? [/quote] God does not need our faith to exist. Catholics believe that we were created to ultimately join God in complete happiness and love- heaven, that we were created out of his love for us, and that he loved us so much that he gave us the option to choose him and his path for us. What kind of love is it if you are being forced to love someone in return? That is why we have the free will to seek the truth, to ask for faith, and to ultimately find God. As for unbelievers and the afterlife (unbelievers in this sense meaning those who chose not to believe), they led their lives in a determined and chosen absence of God. Hell is just that- a place void of God's presence. Everything has opposites. Good vs evil, up vs down, light vs dark, cold vs hot, heaven vs hell. Whereas heaven is complete unity with God, hell is complete separation from God. What we do in this life decides where we are in the next. Living a purposefully godless life on earth will logically lead to a godless afterlife. So, to answer your question, God wants our faith so badly because he wants us to choose Him, to share in his love for eternity. If you truly loved someone, wouldn't you hope that they have faith in you and choose to love you back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RezaMikhaeil Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 SilverPhinx, allow me to seperate what I believe from that of Western Christians. I do not believe that only believers in what I believe will be in heaven. I do not believe that this place called "hell" is necessarily a physical location but rather a condition of the soul. I also do not believe those in a state of "hell" are seperated from the love of G-d, as many have said. St. Isaac the Syrian put it well: [quote] As for me I say that those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments. The suffering with which sinning against love afflicts the heart is more keenly felt than any other torment. It is absurd to assume that the sinners in hell are deprived of God’s love. Love is offered impartially. But by its very power it acts in two ways. It torments sinners, as happens here on earth when we are tormented by the presence of a friend to whom we have been unfaithful. And it gives joy to those who have been faithful. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 [img]http://www.lolsaints.com/sites/lolsaints.com/files/imagecache/main-saint-image/saint-story-images/Caravaggio,%20Conversion%20on%20the%20Way%20to%20Damascus.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted May 16, 2011 Share Posted May 16, 2011 Groo, your posts have become particularly awe[s][/s]some of late. LIKE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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