Vincent Vega Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) Does anyone have any sort of document on why this is not ideal from a Catholic viewpoint? Edited May 13, 2011 by USAirwaysIHS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 I'm thinking that perhaps there's something to this effect in [i]Caritas in Veritate[/i], but I haven't read the entire thing, so I'm not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 We could point to the principle of subsidiary in Rerum Novarum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 It's not ideal, but with the way society is now, it's necessary. Had I relied exclusively on charity, I'd have been homeless at a time I couldn't move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1305301296' post='2240876'] It's not ideal, but with the way society is now, it's necessary. Had I relied exclusively on charity, I'd have been homeless at a time I couldn't move. [/quote] I know. The person/people that I'm arguing against say that thinking coercive charity is not virtuous is a "protestant" way of thinking, though. I'd like to prove them wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1305298451' post='2240852'] We could point to the principle of subsidiary in Rerum Novarum. [/quote] I'll check it out. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Could you be more specific? I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "government enforced charity." Do you mean social programs that use state or federal money to help people in need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RezaMikhaeil Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1305301296' post='2240876'] It's not ideal, but with the way society is now, it's necessary. Had I relied exclusively on charity, I'd have been homeless at a time I couldn't move. [/quote] What about the notion that if people weren't forced to give to charities that they do not want to support, they'd be able to give to individuals like you, or the Catholic Church that could and would help you. Back in 2008-2009, I had a wife, daughter and a child on the way. Due to circumstances, we had to rely upon a catholic charity called "grace place" located in somerset wisconsin. If it wasn't for them, we wouldn't have made it. However, they had limited resources because people were not donating in the downturn of the economy. They were talking about closing their doors but if the government didn't force people to give to their charities, they'd probably have given grace place. Reza Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted May 13, 2011 Author Share Posted May 13, 2011 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1305301961' post='2240879'] Could you be more specific? I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "government enforced charity." Do you mean social programs that use state or federal money to help people in need? [/quote] No, I'm talking about how the virtue of almsgiving is diminished when the gifts are mandated by the government (not making any case as to the necessity/justice of social programs like state-funded health care or welfare, etc.). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 [IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/pope_castro_cuba_012198.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/129044501967390534.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/47933.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/mao_communism_is_1_mousepad-p144015.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/obam_tv2.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/13941_655588303679_5806490_37927720.jpg[/IMG] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 [IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/phatmass/socialism_vs_capitalism.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/phatmass/capitalism3.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/phatmass/The_Faces_of_Capitalism_by_Pit_Kuru.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/phatmass/capitalism2.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/phatmass/soc.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/phatmass/wes2.jpg[/IMG] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1305302534' post='2240883'] No, I'm talking about how the virtue of almsgiving is diminished when the gifts are mandated by the government (not making any case as to the necessity/justice of social programs like state-funded health care or welfare, etc.). [/quote] I have a little window in which to edit my posts if that pic spam makes you pist. Let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 (edited) The government does not dispense charity, it dispenses justice. When the government provides something, it does so out of justice, not out of charity. We don't ask the government for things, we demand things of the government. You can't demand charity, but you can demand justice. Only people can be charitable. Charity is not a solution for social problems. Charity is something very different. Charity is about face-to-face relationships. We don't serve the poor to end poverty. We serve them because they are Christ. In doing so we alleviate the effects of poverty. But, really, charity has no "purpose." Charity is not a means to an end. It is a means to the endless (i.e., to God). Charity is not about "doing for" but about "being with." We "do for" in order to "be with." Christ said "the poor you will always have with you." Some people quote this to minimize the seriousness of poverty as a social problem, and the government's role in it. Personally, I think Christ was saying something profound. Mother Teresa wrote: "If I ever become a saint—I will surely be one of 'darkness.' I will continually be absent from heaven—to light the light of those in darkness on earth." In the same way, the poor will always be with us because if there were no poor people in the world, Christians would still be the poor. That is, after all, the message of Christ. The Gospel is not a social guide to solving poverty. It is a personal guide to becoming poor. That's what both "liberals" and "conservatives" miss. They both think the Gospel is a social guide: liberals expect government charity to solve the social problems of the poor, and conservatives expect personal charity to solve the social problems of the poor. But Christ could have solved the problems of the poor simply by willing it. Gospel charity is not about solving the social problems of the poor, but about becoming the poor. Often, charity can be a way of exercising dominating power (even if it is done sincerely). A rich man giving money to a poor man is in a position of power. He dictates the terms of the relationship. But when the rich man becomes poor himself, then that changes the nature of the relationship. He is no longer in a position of power. The government, however, is always in a position of power. That's why, when people start accepting government money to finance their "charity," they enter into the same kind of power relationship as between the rich man and the poor man. The government dispenses justice, not charity, and when it dispenses "charity," it will dictate the terms of the "charitable" relationship. Edited May 13, 2011 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1305301530' post='2240877'] I know. The person/people that I'm arguing against say that thinking coercive charity is not virtuous is a "protestant" way of thinking, though. I'd like to prove them wrong. [/quote] Well Protestants reject the concept of merit, so being concerned that it is not as meritorius is definantly not a Protestant way of thinking. So much so it is hard for me to understand the charge. Since, according to protestant theologians, good works are not important to individual salvation, government social programs, and support of them politically would certianly fit the requirments that alms be given, but Catholics reject that and, in addition, have a concept of merit, individual good works are important in Catholicism. I think it is quite the opposite, the other point of view is the Protestant one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePenciledOne Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1305302806' post='2240885'] [img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/phatmass/socialism_vs_capitalism.jpg[/img] [img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/phatmass/capitalism3.jpg[/img] [img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/phatmass/The_Faces_of_Capitalism_by_Pit_Kuru.jpg[/img] [img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/phatmass/capitalism2.jpg[/img] [/quote] Love these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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