Religion From An Evolutionary Perspective

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1306821920' post='2248068']
Torquemada was Isabella's personal confessor, thus yes, he would have had a high degree of influence. However, the Spanish Inquisition was in place before he took over, and much of what he did was merely enforcing rules already in place. Did he take it to an extreme? yes. However, I would hesitate to call him a madman, I just don't know enough personally to make such a judgement. Over zealous? yes. Mad? i get a little iffy here.
[/quote]

Um...for me I think his over zealousness went into and beyond madness when compared to other inquisitors, especially if he was largely responsible for trying to convince them of the 'secret jews' contaminating the fabric of Spanish society. Probably a reason he didn't do worse without breaking from the church was because those rules were already in place.

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1306822280' post='2248070']
Von Hildebrand was Catholic, so he meant God in a Catholic sense (I would assume). [url="http://www.hildebrandlegacy.org/main.cfm?r1=1.00&ID=1&level=1"]http://www.hildebran...00&ID=1& level=1[/url]
[/quote]

I had to wiki him since I wasn't familiar with him before...

But I asked because I would even ask a Catholic what they mean by 'god' in the Catholic sense. The Trinity?

Edited May 31, 2011 by xSilverPhinx

[Amppax]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1306823475' post='2248074']
I had to wiki him since I wasn't familiar with him before...

But I asked because I would even ask a Catholic what they mean by 'god' in the Catholic sense. The Trinity?
[/quote]

Yes, the Trinity. here, this pretty much sums it up (the Apostles Creed):

[quote][font=sans-serif][size=2]I believe in God, the Father almighty,creator of heaven and earth.I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord,who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,born of the Virgin Mary, He suffered under Pontius Pilate,was crucified, died, and was buried;he descended to the dead.On the third day he rose again;he ascended into heaven,he is seated at the right hand of the Father,and he will come to judge the living and the dead.I believe in the Holy Spirit,the holy catholic Church,the communion of saints,the forgiveness of sins,the resurrection of the body,and the life everlasting.Amen.[/size][/font]
[/quote]

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1306823221' post='2248072']
Um...for me I think his over zealousness went into and beyond madness when compared to other inquisitors, especially if he was largely responsible for trying to convince them of the 'secret jews' contaminating the fabric of Spanish society. Probably a reason he didn't do worse without breaking from the church was because those rules were already in place.
[/quote]


Oh yes the jump on Torquemada issue, I should have expected it.


You do realze that Torquemada[i] was [/i] from a family of converso's. You also realize there were Secret Jew's and Secret Muslim's in Spain, and of course you realize that these people conspired with the enemy and were a national security threat.

I am assuming you reallize all these things becuase there was nothing mad about Torquemada, there was nothing even overzealous about him. The horrors of Islamic domination were not only fresh in the Spanish mind, it was very possible they would come again, soon.


I think both Morisco rebellions show that indeed there were many secret muslims in spain and that they were only to happy to help invaders take over.

[Socrates]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1306793281' post='2247800']
I mentioned that because just as things have to be analysed in their historical context, you can't try to apply something that for all we know is exclusively human to animals and then say that it invalidates the argument for humans. A lot of our evolution is directed by us, not the as much the environment as is the case with other animals. Also, there's much more to it than simply 'survival of the fittest.' It's survival of those most able to survive, whether alone or in social groups such as us humans.

I think that when atheists say that religion is primitive, it's because it relies on primitive practices and primitive ignorance (in many cases), not that belief systems in themselves are primitive. If you look at the beliefs that primitive peoples had and see those still happening today, then they get called primitive. One example is animal sacrifice. I certainly wouldn't call an enlightned scientist who also has religious beliefs 'primitive'.

Anothing point here is that many atheists think that the belief in god is like the belief in Santa, which is also why it gets called psychologically primitive and childish.

In fact, IMO the best atheistic arguments used to explain religion, religious beliefs and the evolution of religions are based on the psychological, social and biological characteristics that make us human. Religion works on existential grounding and is about existential questions. It just goes one step further in many cases and institutionalised them.[/quote]
Let's just say that I'm unconvinced that religion can be purely explained by biology and evolution. I'm sure you see it differently though.



[quote]"Atheism is a natural and inseparable [u]part of Marxism[/u]" not "Atheism = Marxism".[/quote]
I never made that claim. Please re-read my last posts.

[quote]Still not convinced by your arguments. Atheist is just a statement of what somebody doesn't believe, it's not about what somebody does believe. Sure you have atheists who believe that religion is the cause of all evil and that belief is what influences their acts, not their atheism.

Christianity is, like any other religious belief system, composed of positive beliefs. There is no positive belief system called 'atheism'. Atheism is at most just one facet of systems.

What you're doing here is taking a group of people who fall in the larger category of atheism but contained within a smaller group of Marxists and applying that smaller group to the larger category. There's [i]way[/i] more contained within the larger group of atheism than Marxism and you would have to try much harder to try and apply the positive beliefs of the Marxists system to the broader category of 'atheism'.

You didn't answer the question, btw. What do you think atheism is exactly? What do atheists believe in?[/quote]
Well, I won't repeat myself, since I see you caught my earlier reply in that later post.

My point's pretty simple. Atheists have Christians beat in the murders and atrocities dept. There's no historical evidence that getting rid of religion makes people any more good or peaceful.

The whole "historical track record" thing is a lame non-argument anyway. The real and alleged misdeeds of members of the Church through history do not prove the Christian faith false, merely that many have failed to live up to it (often miserably). You'll remember (if you've read your Bible) that Judas himself, one of the Twelve, betrayed Christ himself.


[quote]I'm aware of those, but it's the problems that need more urgent attention.[/quote]
Not sure what you're talking about. Problems more urgent than feeding the starving, and caring for orphans and those in immediate danger of death?

If you spend all your time on sites made with the sole purpose of bashing Christians, you'll seriously miss the big picture of what Christians and the Church are doing.



[quote]That's why I stick to atheist websites [/quote]
Let's just say those cheesy atheist sites you linked to did a better job of dispelling the notion of atheists all being unbiased and objective than I ever could on my own!
(And I can't decide which is worse, their propagandistic butchering of history or their web design.

[quote]These are African Christians who live in harsh and sometimes hopeless conditions, not the happy and satisfied Christians that live a normal life with its ups and downs but get by.[/quote]
There are many, many Christians in Africa and other poor parts of the world living in extremely harsh conditions and dire poverty who are (at least spiritually) quite happy and satisfied, oftentimes more so than rich Westerners.
Have you ever been to Africa and visited the Christians there?

[quote]Sure it's not. But it's not a solution.[/quote]
Monogamy/chastity would do far more to help stave the spread of AIDS than condoms or anything else. And yes, monogamy is indeed possible. Dumping tons of condoms on Africa has done little to end AIDS in Africa.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1306793949' post='2247802']
How so? I'm not the one who has much to gain here...

This whole meaning system thing with truth being irrelavent (and not addressed by this idea) is not politically motivated but is a good description of what happens IMO in all religious beliefs, not just Cristianity.[/quote]
I'm not sure what I've got to gain personally from this debate. Certainly not money.


[quote] Were only Christians persecuted by the communists?[/quote]
No, but they are the religion who's suffered the bulk of Communist persecution.
Does the fact that the atheist Communists also persecuted non-Christian religions make their persecution less real?


[quote]"Communism is an atheist ideology which regards religions as wrong and evil, and thus opposes them."

I'm not defending communism here...[/quote]
Good for you. Never said you were.


[quote]I'll check them out.




Well, I got it off video reports, not those sites.[/quote]
Youtube: font of all Truth.

[quote]Though, I didn't see those as "hate sites". They're talking about what some Christian missionaries are doing in some African countries based on things that are written in the Bible. Those things are in the scriptural foundation for Christianity being passed on as divine truth and wisdom, so...then what?[/quote]
Sites like the "freetruth" and "Pascal's wager" sites you linked to have no purpose other than to bash Christians and the Christian Faith. More nonsense there than I have time to refute, but let's just say I was hardly impressed with their standards of accuracy and objectivity (nor their use of html formatting).

Read the entire New Testament, starting with the four Gospels, then tell me whether you think Christianity is a religion of hate and violence.

[Socrates]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1306796229' post='2247814']
And since we're also on the topic of Christianity's historical track record, I thought it relevant to clear it up a bit.

I said that it had to do with both the Inquisition and Dark Ages (I'll just use that name, or DA for short) which are the two most brought up.

As for the Inquisition, you're right that it should be compared with other powers at that time, namely secular, but on the other hand it was also instigated by the religious. The cleansing that went on in Spain for instance was in a sense cultural genocide, did the High Clergy oppose it or actively encourage it? What about Torquemada?

As for the DAs, which were in pre Protestant Reformation times so essentially Catholic...what do you call the non tolerant enforcement of Catholicism?

Are you trying to compare Christianity's (as a positive belief system) track record against atheism (just denotes a lack of belief in gods) by comparing the number of people which each supposedly killed?
[/quote]
First of all what exactly do you mean by the "dark ages"? That's a vague (and derogatory) historical term, which different historians have used to refer to different periods of history (though many current historians prefer not to use the term at all).
And what exactly in "the dark ages" allegedly refutes Christianity or Catholicism? You're making vague and nebulous charges about a vague and nebulous historical term.

No century in the "dark ages" can match the past 100 years for shear bloodshed and brutality.

As for " non tolerant enforcement of Catholicism," Protestant rulers after the Protestant revolt were much less tolerant of Catholics, and witch-burning was a largely protestant, post-Reformation phenomenon. which was largely unknown before the 1400s.

And you need to understand the history of medieval Spain to put the events there in the 15th century in perspective. Spanish Christians had recently completed a centuries-long struggle to reclaim their land from the rule of the Muslim Moors who had invaded Christian Spain and conquered it by violent force.
I'm not defending everything that went on in the Inquisition, but you need historical context to put it all in perspective. There is a lot of misinformation about the Spanish Inquisition going back to Protestant English propaganda from when they were at war with Spain. (Their own persecution of Catholics at the time was much harsher than anything that went on during the Spanish Inquisition.)

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1306793281' post='2247800']
Sure it's not. But it's not a solution.
[/quote]

Seriously? Condoms are not a solution, but monogamy certainly is. Condoms promote psychological dependence. Monogamy promotes responsibility. Don't even act like you think dependence is 'more evolved'.

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1306860934' post='2248196']
Oh yes the jump on Torquemada issue, I should have expected it.


You do realze that Torquemada[i] was [/i] from a family of converso's. You also realize there were Secret Jew's and Secret Muslim's in Spain, and of course you realize that these people conspired with the enemy and were a national security threat.[/quote]

Can you back these up? Because this sounds simliar to Hitler's story in many ways, which I also don't believe.

[quote]I am assuming you reallize all these things becuase there was nothing mad about Torquemada, there was nothing even overzealous about him. The horrors of Islamic domination were not only fresh in the Spanish mind, it was very possible they would come again, soon.

I think both Morisco rebellions show that indeed there were many secret muslims in spain and that they were only to happy to help invaders take over.[/quote]

You're justifying his acts? How did he even have access to the information that the "secret jews" and "secret muslims" were conspiring with the enemy and were a national security threat. A why would a few isolated cases need a whole inquisition to round the whole lot up?

Personally I think that the jealously that the "old Christians" felt is more plausible against those conversos that where in positions of influential power. Talk about a whole nation going into mass hysteria.

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='MagiDragon' timestamp='1306865738' post='2248230']
Seriously? Condoms are not a solution, but monogamy certainly is. Condoms promote psychological dependence. Monogamy promotes responsibility. Don't even act like you think dependence is 'more evolved'.
[/quote]

I have no problem with monogamy, but condoms are a act of responsibility as well, especially if one already is HIV positive. It's between preaching abstinence over condoms that I find to be a wrong.

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1306863695' post='2248217']
Let's just say that I'm unconvinced that religion can be purely explained by biology and evolution. I'm sure you see it differently though.[/quote]

Okay. I'm analysing it from a conceptual point of view, which would hit this sort of barrier when discussing it with someone who is analysing it from a realistic point of view.


[quote]My point's pretty simple. Atheists have Christians beat in the murders and atrocities dept. There's no historical evidence that getting rid of religion makes people any more good or peaceful.[/quote]

Actually I think that even if everybody in the world followed one religion they would'nt be more good or peaceful. The error I think you made there was that atheism is not a belief system but is one part of belief systems that don't believe in gods, while Christianity is. There's nothing in atheism that says that you should 'turn the other cheek' or be good and moral so you can't construct a set of rules, attribute it to atheism and say that some atheists are bad because they were atheists. There's just no such thing.

This may look like a cop-out but it's not. I'm not denying that communist atheists were responsible for the atrocities, but it was not because of atheism.

The reason I asked you what you thought an atheist believe in is because time and again I've come across Christians who seem to think that atheism is a negation of everything they believe in. For instance, if somebody believes that you can only be a moral human being if you believe in god, then if you don't then you are not moral. Or that we're nihilists who don't believe in anything. I just thought I'd clear that up.

[quote]The whole "historical track record" thing is a lame non-argument anyway. The real and alleged misdeeds of members of the Church through history do not prove the Christian faith false, merely that many have failed to live up to it (often miserably). You'll remember (if you've read your Bible) that Judas himself, one of the Twelve, betrayed Christ himself.[/quote]

I try to analyse the systems as separate from the people trying to follow them. There's a lot of variability even within the Christian community itself.

[quote]Not sure what you're talking about. Problems more urgent than feeding the starving, and caring for orphans and those in immediate danger of death?[/quote]

No, but it's giving people fish rather than teaching them to fish. Though I know that making fishermen of people is a way more complicated process, especially with all the non religious issues going on.

[quote]If you spend all your time on sites made with the sole purpose of bashing Christians, you'll seriously miss the big picture of what Christians and the Church are doing.[/quote]

Those were about one country, Uganda, which is hardly the whole African continent in which Christian influence using the scripture as a basis has taken over its legislature (based on unreasonable premises).

As for the rest, each portion of Christian Africa has its own problems, some more related to or instigated by religion than others.

[quote]Let's just say those cheesy atheist sites you linked to did a better job of dispelling the notion of atheists all being unbiased and objective than I ever could on my own!
(And I can't decide which is worse, their propagandistic butchering of history or their web design.[/quote]

Can you provide links to dispel the "propaganda" or are you just saying?

[quote]There are many, many Christians in Africa and other poor parts of the world living in extremely harsh conditions and dire poverty who are (at least spiritually) quite happy and satisfied, oftentimes more so than rich Westerners.
Have you ever been to Africa and visited the Christians there?[/quote]

I have my doubts as to whether they are more "spiritually" satisfied because they are Christians. In my experience with poorer people I've come to a conclusion that they're simply happier because life is simpler and they're free from the endless pursuit of trying to find meaning in consumers, creating and then trying to fill one void at a time. I've lived in South Africa, though a long time ago, and have not had direct contact with missionaries there.

The problem with religious escapism is that if you live in hopeless conditions (not just poverty but endless war and conflict right on your backyard) and somebody promises you a savior that guarantees that when you die you'll be free from all that, it just too easy to devote yourself purely to spiritual matters such as going to church and studying the bible instead of trying to build something for yourself to better your worldly existence. I think it's understandable, but it doesn't make things any better, obviously.

Edited May 31, 2011 by xSilverPhinx

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote]Youtube: font of all Truth.[/quote]

YouTube produces videos?

Seriously now, it was a journalistic report in which a community leader was complaining that religion was directing people's attention in this way.

[quote]I'm not sure what I've got to gain personally from this debate. Certainly not money. [/quote]

Just chartering a goldfish's movements from outside the fishbowl...

[quote]No, but they are the religion who's suffered the bulk of Communist persecution.
Does the fact that the atheist Communists also persecuted non-Christian religions make their persecution less real?[/quote]

No, it doesn't make it any less real, but of those Christians, did the majority of the groups have a religious foreign or domestic power?

[quote]Sites like the "freetruth" and "Pascal's wager" sites you linked to have no purpose other than to bash Christians and the Christian Faith. More nonsense there than I have time to refute, but let's just say I was hardly impressed with their standards of accuracy and objectivity (nor their use of html formatting).

Read the entire New Testament, starting with the four Gospels, then tell me whether you think Christianity is a religion of hate and violence.[/quote]

Using the example of Uganda again, does the NT say anything about homosexuals? If not, then why do people cherry pick especially that passage from the OT to use as a basis?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]Can you back these up? Because this sounds simliar to Hitler's story in many ways, which I also don't believe. [/quote]

Well without getting out my library I seem to recall that Hernando Del Pulgar (sp?) who lived during the 15th century said so directly.

[quote]You're justifying his acts? How did he even have access to the information that the "secret jews" and "secret muslims" were conspiring with the enemy and were a national security threat. A why would a few isolated cases need a whole inquisition to round the whole lot up? [/quote]
How do we have access to information that Muslim terrorist are going to blow up bombs and the like now, It's called an intellegence network and traitors. Why would it need to be a few isolated cases, it certianly wasn't isolated when the country was invaded by muslims, the Secret muslims rose by the thousand. And what are you talking about? the whole lote was not rounded up, not until the end of the second Morisco rebellion, when they were moved and forced to live among the old Christians, butthat was 80 years after Torqemada.


[quote]Personally I think that the jealously that the "old Christians" felt is more plausible against those conversos that where in positions of influential power. Talk about a whole nation going into mass hysteria. [/quote]


Yeah okay..... do you have any idea what was happening in the Mediterrainian in the 15th and 16th century? The Spanish were paragons of Christian Charity, if that kind of stuff were happening to our coast the US wouldn't be inviting those doing it to stay, except in graves.

[xSilverPhinx]

Typo correction:

[quote]I have my doubts as to whether they are more "spiritually" satisfied because they are Christians. In my experience with poorer people I've come to a conclusion that they're simply happier because life is simpler and they're free from the endless pursuit of trying to find meaning in [u]consumers[/u] *consumerism, creating and then trying to fill one void at a time. I've lived in South Africa, though a long time ago, and have not had direct contact with missionaries there.[/quote]

***

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1306873431' post='2248287']
Well without getting out my library I seem to recall that Hernando Del Pulgar (sp?) who lived during the 15th century said so directly.[/quote]

He [i]said[/i] so?


[quote]How do we have access to information that Muslim terrorist are going to blow up bombs and the like now, It's called an intellegence network and traitors. Why would it need to be a few isolated cases, it certianly wasn't isolated when the country was invaded by muslims, the Secret muslims rose by the thousand. And what are you talking about? the whole lote was not rounded up, not until the end of the second Morisco rebellion, when they were moved and forced to live among the old Christians, butthat was 80 years after Torqemada. [/quote]

You think intelligence networks can't fail? Just because the word on the streets says something, it could be just unsubstantiated rumours propagated by old Christians who resent new Christians being given hgih positions in a country where the official religion is Christianity. It could also very well be Jews and Muslims who remained such feel resentment because they see the new converts as traitors to their faith and culture. Motivations like those should be considered.

Or...it really could be substantiated paranoia because a whole lot of new converts are not happy and the whole lot of them want to destroy society.

I'm reading up on the morisco rebellion, though it does look like there was a bit of instigation going on...

[quote]Yeah okay..... do you have any idea what was happening in the Mediterrainian in the 15th and 16th century? The Spanish were paragons of Christian Charity, if that kind of stuff were happening to our coast the US wouldn't be inviting those doing it to stay, except in graves.
[/quote]

The State was Catholic and had recently conquered the Muslim portion. 'Nuff said. It was a stability issue.

Edited May 31, 2011 by xSilverPhinx

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]He [i]said[/i] so?[/quote]
Yes he was an author /historian who wrote about the prominate people at court, he said this was the case ....WHILE Torquemada was alive and had the ability deny it refute it or punish him for it. But Torquemada did no such thing. That seems like pretty good evidence to me. You know sincere converts are the most zealous believers.


[quote]You think intelligence networks can't fail? Just because the word on the streets says something, it could be just unsubstantiated rumours propagated by old Christians who resent new Christians being given hgih positions in a country where the official religion is Christianity. It could also very well be Jews and Muslims who remained such feel resentment because they see the new converts as traitors to their faith and culture. Motivations like those should be considered.

Or...it really could be substantiated paranoia because a whole lot of new converts are not happy and the whole lot of them want to destroy society. [/quote]

Of course they can fail, and of course there can be people reporting for less than honest reasons, however, the inquisition had protections agiant that, for onething you were allowed to give a list of your enemies 9 you were not told your accuser) and if your accuser was on that list, you were sent home. Torquemada was in many ways a penal reformer, he improved prison life tremendously.
[quote]
I'm reading up on the morisco rebellion, though it does look like there was a bit of instigation going on... [/quote] Of course their was, on both sides. But the fact that Nroth Africans were landing and enslaving entire cities didn't help.

[quote]The State was Catholic and had recently conquered the Muslim portion. 'Nuff said. It was a stability issue.[/quote] to some extent yes.