xSilverPhinx Posted June 8, 2011 Author Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307499641' post='2251091'] He makes a similar point that I made earlier the point that it makes little sense to be curious and ask so much of God from Christians or seek the company of Christians if Atheists do not doubt their doubt or feel something lacking. He makes the point from reason and conscience that you don't go about attacking the imagery. Because it is crazy and insane. Positive Atheism via Communism and other groups who held positive forms of Atheism which attacked God or His people did just that, it is the fact that God does exists that saves them from insanity. If He did not their attacks would make no sense what so ever and be counter to sanity. [/quote] I feel there's a huge difference between how I see the world and my existence and the way believers see it. I have no reason to assume that people are lying when they say that god is just as real to them as their parents are, and it's a curious thing. It's like exploring a whole other human universe. After interacting with Christians online for a while I quickly dismissed the long held idea that religous views are like belief in Santa for grown-ups. The god concept is complex even though it may vary between people, like a theory of everything, such as you have in science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307502556' post='2251111'] I feel there's a huge difference between how I see the world and my existence and the way believers see it. I have no reason to assume that people are lying when they say that god is just as real to them as their parents are, and it's a curious thing. It's like exploring a whole other human universe. After interacting with Christians online for a while I quickly dismissed the long held idea that religous views are like belief in Santa for grown-ups. The god concept is complex even though it may vary between people, like a theory of everything, such as you have in science. [/quote] If God is not real then the thought that He exists is imaginary. But more than that actually, it wold be insanity. People pray to God, devote there whole existence to God, they believe God guides their whole life. If God is not real then Freud's judgement about the God concept would be correct. That every one that suffers from that complex presents a case of collective insanity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 Hypothetically... the same objections that someone brings to an atheist for speaking to theists about their beliefs, is the same objections that an atheist can bring to a theist for speaking to them about their lack of belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted June 8, 2011 Author Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307503703' post='2251121'] If God is not real then the thought that He exists is imaginary. But more than that actually, it wold be insanity. People pray to God, devote there whole existence to God, they believe God guides their whole life. If God is not real then Freud's judgement about the God concept would be correct. That every one that suffers from that complex presents a case of collective insanity. [/quote] I think the word 'insanity' would be a bit strong in this case, since it's more commonly used to refer to chemical imbalances in the brain that cause psychological disorders and not beliefs, even if irrational or more emotional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307511229' post='2251172'] I think the word 'insanity' would be a bit strong in this case, since it's more commonly used to refer to chemical imbalances in the brain that cause psychological disorders and not beliefs, even if irrational or more emotional. [/quote] It would still be a form of serious mental disorder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote][b]Handbook of Religion and Health[/b], page 72 "What about religious beliefs and behaviors of mental health professionals outside of the United States? Neeleman and King (1993) surveyed 231 psychiatrists at general and psychiatric hospitals in London, England. Religious background and belief were each assessed by 16 questions. Almost three-quarters (73%) of psychiatrists reported no religious affiliation (vs 38% of their patients), and 78% attend religious services less than once a month. Belief in God was more common among women than men psychiatrists (39% vs 19%). Interestingly 92% of these psychiatrists believed that religion and mental illness were connected and that religious issues should be addressed in treatment. Almost one-half (42%) of the psychiatrists believed that religiosity can lead to mental illness, and 58% never made referrals to clergy."[/quote]I think insanity is a harsh word, so is mental disorder, moreover being used by people unfamiliar with the supposed sciences that study and treat mental illness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted June 8, 2011 Author Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307511588' post='2251173'] It would still be a form of serious mental disorder. [/quote] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder"]Mental Disorders[/url] affect normal functioning. There could be an incidence of religious delusions in some disorders but if religious feelings and life are not listed in the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders"]latest DSM[/url] then it isn't officially considered to be a mental disorder. IMO it looks like an interpretational framework and not a disorder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307512592' post='2251176'] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder"]Mental Disorders[/url] affect normal functioning. There could be an incidence of religious delusions in some disorders but if religious feelings and life are not listed in the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders"]latest DSM[/url] then it isn't officially considered to be a mental disorder. IMO it looks like an interpretational framework and not a disorder. [/quote] So if I believe in a 6ft rabbit named Harvey and I constantly talk to Harvey and I believe Harvey constantly guides my life and tells me what to do and I think Harvey has magic powers and saves me from dangers, and I think Harvey will take me away to a special place saving me from dying that is not a form of mental disorder? You have really got to start being honest with atheism, if your going to claim to be any kind of atheist. Without God's existence Christianity is a collective mental disorder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted June 8, 2011 Author Share Posted June 8, 2011 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307512957' post='2251177'] So if I believe in a 6ft rabbit named Harvey and I constantly talk to Harvey and I believe Harvey constantly guides my life and tells me what to do and I think Harvey has magic powers and saves me from dangers, and I think Harvey will take me away to a special place saving me from dying that is not a form of mental disorder? You have really got to start being honest with atheism, if your going to claim to be any kind of atheist. Without God's existence Christianity is a collective mental disorder. [/quote] I'm not a psychiatrist, and I'm certainly not going to tell people online who I don't know that they have a mental disorder for their interpretational view. There are some disorders which have a higher correlation with weird religious beliefs, such as people who believe that they are god. Some hear (audible) voices that the believe are coming from god. These two examples which as far as I know are not shared by the majority of believers are indictative of something not normal going on in their brains. Edit: typo Edited June 8, 2011 by xSilverPhinx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307513579' post='2251180'] I'm not a psychiatrist, and I'm certainly not going to tell people online who I don't know that they have a mental disorder for their interpretational view. There are some disorders which have a higher correlation with weird religious beliefs, such as people who believe that they are god. Some hear (audible) voices that the believe are coming from god. These two examples which as far as I know are not shared by the majority of believers are indictative of something not normal going on in their brains. Edit: typo [/quote] You know I think from Devils Advocate point of arguement I argue a much more logical reality of what atheism is than you. I spend hours in front of the Blessed Sacrament praying for loved ones asking the Lord in the Eucharist to watch over my family to convert unbelievers to His Sacred Heart, along with all the other forms of worship I give Christ and all the things I do for Christ if He is in fact not real in all honesty I am suffering from a mental disorder. There's simply no way out of that logic. The same would however sad (thought sad is a construct so it to would be fake) for everyone that gave worship and seeks guidance from God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted June 8, 2011 Author Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307514258' post='2251182'] You know I think from Devils Advocate point of arguement I argue a much more logical reality of what atheism is than you. I spend hours in front of the Blessed Sacrament praying for loved ones asking the Lord in the Eucharist to watch over my family to convert unbelievers to His Sacred Heart, along with all the other forms of worship I give Christ and all the things I do for Christ if He is in fact not real in all honesty I am suffering from a mental disorder. There's simply no way out of that logic. The same would however sad (thought sad is a construct so it to would be fake) for everyone that gave worship and seeks guidance from God. [/quote] We're just going to have to agree to disagree. I lack a belief in gods but when it comes to the reasons why I don't believe, they're just beliefs, and I could be wrong. I don't know whether god exists or not. I reject the claims, which is different. I can't prove that you're wrong or even 100% dismiss what you see as evidence for god being real, because I don't know everything. If god is real to you, then he's real to you. Why are you even letting me who has no access to your experiences, say whether they're valid or not? I'm saying what [i]I[/i] believe, not what you should believe in order to be not mentally ill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted June 8, 2011 Author Share Posted June 8, 2011 Just to highlight the section from wiki: [b]Intangible experiences[/b] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious"]Religious[/url], [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality"]spiritual[/url], or [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpersonal"]transpersonal[/url] experiences and beliefs are typically not defined as disordered, especially if widely shared, despite meeting many criteria of delusional or psychotic disorders.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder#cite_note-67"][1][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder#cite_note-68"][2][/url][/sup] Even when a belief or experience can be shown to produce distress or disability—the ordinary standard for judging mental disorders—the presence of a strong cultural basis for that belief, experience, or interpretation of experience, generally disqualifies it from counting as evidence of mental disorder. [list=1][*][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder#cite_ref-67"]^[/url][/b] Pierre JM (May 2001). [url="http://meta.wkhealth.com/pt/pt-core/template-journal/lwwgateway/media/landingpage.htm?issn=1527-4160&volume=7&issue=3&spage=163"]"Faith or delusion? At the crossroads of religion and psychosis"[/url]. [i]J Psychiatr Pract[/i] [b]7[/b] (3): 163–72. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier"]doi[/url]:[url="http://dx.doi.org/10.1097%2F00131746-200105000-00004"]10.1097/00131746-200105000-00004[/url]. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Identifier"]PMID[/url] [url="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15990520"]15990520[/url].[*][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder#cite_ref-68"]^[/url][/b] Johnson CV, Friedman HL (2008). [url="http://jhp.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/48/4/505"]"Enlightened or Delusional? Differentiating Religious, Spiritual, and Transpersonal Experiences from Psychopathology"[/url]. [i]Journal of Humanistic Psychology[/i] [b]48[/b] (4): 505–27. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier"]doi[/url]:[url="http://dx.doi.org/10.1177%2F0022167808314174"]10.1177/0022167808314174[/url].[/list] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307512957' post='2251177'] So if I believe in a 6ft rabbit named Harvey and I constantly talk to Harvey and I believe Harvey constantly guides my life and tells me what to do and I think Harvey has magic powers and saves me from dangers, and I think Harvey will take me away to a special place saving me from dying that is not a form of mental disorder? You have really got to start being honest with atheism, if your going to claim to be any kind of atheist. Without God's existence Christianity is a collective mental disorder. [/quote] Loved this post, very funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307514258' post='2251182'] if He is in fact not real in all honesty I am suffering from a mental disorder. There's simply no way out of that logic.[/quote] I don't agree with this. Theology is very elaborate and intricate, it is taught by many around the world, substantiated by cultural holidays, old churches, old paintings, substantiated by your peers, your elders, there are many reasons other than mental illness as to how you can believe without having proof or evidence to support your belief. the vast majority of people once thought the world was flat, that didn't mean they were all mentally ill, just ignorant and misinformed Edited June 8, 2011 by stevil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 8, 2011 Share Posted June 8, 2011 [quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307514995' post='2251184'] We're just going to have to agree to disagree. I lack a belief in gods but when it comes to the reasons why I don't believe, they're just beliefs, and I could be wrong. I don't know whether god exists or not. I reject the claims, which is different. I can't prove that you're wrong or even 100% dismiss what you see as evidence for god being real, because I don't know everything. If god is real to you, then he's real to you. Why are you even letting me who has no access to your experiences, say whether they're valid or not? I'm saying what [i]I[/i] believe, not what you should believe in order to be not mentally ill. [/quote] We will I agree with the would be reality and you disagree with that would be reality, as well as reality. God is real with or without your opinion or belief in Him. He is real with or without my belief in Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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