Religion From An Evolutionary Perspective

[Nihil Obstat]

Out of curiosity, Phinx, what do you think of AJ Ayer?

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307239212' post='2250064']
You can never prove to me that you feel love and I will never know for sure if you do because I can't experience something that is fundamentally your experience. If I asked you to prove that you actually feel love, the best you could do is either try and describe what the feeling or experience of feeling love is and I can compare it to what I feel and determine if both can be categorised as the same. For you could have your brain scanned while experiencing the feeling of love and compare it to someone else (though it's more likely that there will be slight differences).

The best that I can do with the god example, since I don't have religious experiences (but do have experiences that are very similar to those that religious people describe) is see where and how the descriptions are similar between different people of different religions. There are also simulated experiences that I use to compare with those.

Some of the most valuable are what are described by people who have deconverted from a religion to atheism. What they say about the experiences they had is very interesting IMO. All of these come together to form my beliefs that god is a product of the mind and not outside it. This doesn't mean that there is no god outside the mind in the objective world, I just reject claims of personal relationships with god even though I can never really prove my position.

If you say that god=love, then you're not differentiating between the two. Also, if that were the case, people who don't believe in god would be incapable of feeling love and the burden of proving that they don't would be on you. [/quote]

You are just being inconsent with the ideology you claim to believe. If God is a social construct Love is too. I understand you can't deal with it atheism is contradictory with reality, this is why you cannot give up the idea that love exists. But if you are ever going to be consent with what atheism is you'll have to give up all things that are just social constructs, all things that are just as imagery as God. You'll have to give up love, so long as you hold on to it, you hold on to a big part of God.


[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307239212' post='2250064']
Like i said, god (with all the elaborate explanations and personality traits) is not obvious to me. 1+1 is self evident, even if I can't prove that 1=1.

How is god as obvious as 1=1?[/quote]

How is 1=1 obvious? You failed to prove it yet you believe it, in fact you pretty much said it was so complex and hard to understand it was not obvious. If it was obvious you could and should explain it. Amppax gave a good answer.

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1307192017' post='2249849']
Its funny we've brought Math into this discussion... you do realize that all math rests upon a set of axioms, statements that are assumed (believed) to be true.
[/quote]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307239212' post='2250064']I doubt any victim would ever say that. Other people say that about other people. [/quote]

I doubt it as well. But without moral absolutes or objective morality the rapist can say that and his truth is just as true as any other opinion.


[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307239212' post='2250064']Rape is never justified. In that case you could say I would say it's an absolute rule, because there's no context where it would be a lesser evil. [/quote]

So now you can begin your journey to the side of light and reason. You do believe in objective morality. You do believe in objective truth.


[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307239212' post='2250064']I think people can lead a purposeful life without living on after they die. But that's just my opinion.[/quote]

Exactly. JUST your opinion. Don't you want a purpose for existance other than just your opinion? If there be no God any purpose for our existance is that just opinion, and it is an opinon that is fleeting. Once we are dead it matters not. It becomes pointless and you cannot argue otherwise namely because you will be dead and cease to exist. Without God one day the human race, man, all of man will wither and fall and his place shall be found no more. The whole of man existences, all the acts of 'love' every signal event that every happened good or bad, every act of courage, every kind act, every triumph and ever defeat will mean nothing, and have no effect on a meaningless and pointless universe.

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307239212' post='2250064']I'm curious...you were an atheist?
[/quote]

Surely there was a time where I was agnostic, perhaps even atheistic but not atheist if that makes sense. Surely I was far from God and His Truth at one time. But I found myself being just as inconsistent as you are being. If I was to be indifferent about the existence of God I came to the most logical conclusion that I must also be indifferent about the existence of love, hate, right, wrong, good, evil and etc etc. And if I was to deny God I would also have to deny those things or be inconsistent or contradictory. Great many other events in my life lead me away from that path of pointless darkness. One of which was finding this place, I lurked a long time before I posted here, and it helped in my reconversion to the Catholic Faith. On a similar note it has always been something of a wonder to me why atheists seek out the company of Christians, why do they join Catholic/Christian community websites? Based on my past I believe it is because either they want validation of their beliefs because they deep down question the non-existence of God. Or two they perhaps in their inner most being, their sub conscience, long for God, long to be rid of the emptiness they have without God. So they seek out the next best thing, Christians, because Christians are close to God. I believe one of these factors, or similar factors are why you are here with us and why you ask the questions you do of us and why you engage in debates of this sort.

Edited June 5, 2011 by KnightofChrist

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1307240986' post='2250069']
Out of curiosity, Phinx, what do you think of AJ Ayer?
[/quote]


I don't know how much confidence he has in his verification methods, especially when speaking of perception and qualitative experiences because information is always lost, both on transmission and at the receptive end. I certainly don't dismiss experiences as metaphysics...

Interesting ideas. I'll have to read up on him a bit more though.

I actually find it a bit amusing that I see no reason to question whether KoC feels love because it is a meaningful word to me even though it's a qualitative experience but am skeptical as to whether his religious experiences are actually from god because it is not a meaningful word to me. I didn't actually think that much about that point till now. I guess I already take for granted that whatever description of love that he feels is meaningful, even though I can't really put his emotion to the empirical test.

Could the same thing happen between theists when talking about how they see god?

Edited June 5, 2011 by xSilverPhinx

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307249186' post='2250090']
Surely there was a time where I was agnostic, perhaps even atheistic but not atheist if that makes sense. Surely I was far from God and His Truth at one time. But I found myself being just as inconsistent as you are being. If I was to be indifferent about the existence of God I came to the most logical conclusion that I must also be indifferent about the existence of love, hate, right, wrong, good, evil and etc etc. And if I was to deny God I would also have to deny those things or be inconsistent or contradictory. Great many other events in my life lead me away from that path of pointless darkness. One of which was finding this place, I lurked a long time before I posted here, and it helped in my reconversion to the Catholic Faith. On a similar note it has always been something of a wonder to me why atheists seek out the company of Christians, why do they join Catholic/Christian community websites? Based on my past I believe it is because either they want validation of their beliefs because they deep down question the non-existence of God. Or two they perhaps in their inner most being, their sub conscience, long for God, long to be rid of the emptiness they have without God. So they seek out the next best thing, Christians, because Christians are close to God. I believe one of these factors, or similar factors are why you are here with us and why you ask the questions you do of us and why you engage in debates of this sort.[/quote]

Calm down...I'm posting here because I find this stuff fascinating.

You know, you could ignore me if you want to. I'm guessing you really don't like my opinions and the fact that they are opinions.

Edited June 5, 2011 by xSilverPhinx

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307254515' post='2250101']
Calm down...I'm posting here because I find this stuff fascinating.

You know, you could ignore me if you want to. I'm guessing you really don't like my opinions and the fact that they are opinions.
[/quote]

I think you're here for more than that, it is a common practice amongst atheists which I find rather strange if they are indeed so sure no God exists why seek out the company of Christians? But I will give you that, Christianity is indeed fascinating, something atheism is not, specially negative atheism.

Also I am completely claim and cool.

Lastly your opinions are your opinion. I would if I were you want what I believe to rely on something more than just my opinions. As I've said a 100 times, if there's no objective truth all opinions no matter how good they sound are just opinions and all opinions are equal in value. It is a great and fatal flaw.

Edited June 5, 2011 by KnightofChrist

[stevil]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307239212' post='2250064']
I'm curious...you were an atheist?
[/quote]
Everyone who has ever been in existence, all people, all living creatures, all inanimate objects have been atheists at some point.
When a person is born they have no understanding of anything, and hence no belief in gods. To believe in gods one must be taught.


[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307249186' post='2250090']
On a similar note it has always been something of a wonder to me why atheists seek out the company of Christians, why do they join Catholic/Christian community websites? Based on my past I believe it is because either they want validation of their beliefs because they deep down question the non-existence of God. Or two they perhaps in their inner most being, their sub conscience, long for God, long to be rid of the emptiness they have without God. So they seek out the next best thing, Christians, because Christians are close to God. [/quote]
Its nice of you to speak on my behalf again as you have done before in a previous post. But actually, I am here to understand better a contingent of people that live within the society that I do. We have many Christians in my country and I do find an online forum as a good opportunity to better understand them. In real life, questioning ones belief can and does rub people the wrong way. I have been on an atheist forum for a few months and have observed many trollish Christian visitors. They often say "crazy" things and I found an opportunity to join this forum where I could actually meet non trollish Christians and potentially get a better understanding of them. I won't debate the existence of god because I am quite sure there is no material evidence and hence discussions will only delve into theology which to me is the world of make believe.
I am not sure why generally the theists visiting the atheist forum are only Christians, possibly because Christians have a huge drive to evangalise, where as muslims, jewish, hindus do not. But anyway, I most likely will be visiting some of those forums too, to get a better understanding of those communities, the people not the religion. But these people are by far a minority in my country. So in summary I am not here to validate my beliefs, (I am pretty secure in my stance, although I am open to listening to others view), I do not long for god on any level. I do not see god as anything more than an imaginary concept.

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307260221' post='2250112']
I think you're here for more than that, it is a common practice amongst atheists which I find rather strange if they are indeed so sure no God exists why seek out the company of Christians? But I will give you that, Christianity is indeed fascinating, something atheism is not, specially negative atheism.

Also I am completely claim and cool.

Lastly your opinions are your opinion. I would if I were you want what I believe to rely on something more than just my opinions. As I've said a 100 times, if there's no objective truth all opinions no matter how good they sound are just opinions and all opinions are equal in value. It is a great and fatal flaw.
[/quote]

Yes, my opinions are just my opinion, and I'm okay with that. I'm also okay with the fact that others have opinions, but not so with claims of immutable truth, or any claim of insight into the ultimate Truth (with the capital T) of reality without proving that it's the case, especially if those beliefs are not restricted to the private individual which is nearly always the case with institutionalised religion.

I also think that there is an objective reality though that doesn't mean that it's known. How on earth the supernatural reality (if it exists) can be known objectively is beyond me.

I'm not sure that no god exists, I never said that, I just reject the claims of people who say they have a personal relationship with god even though I can't prove that they don't. There are an infinite number of possible gods, including those that no human has ever thought of, or is even capable of thinking of.

I find all religious belief to be fascinating, especially how beliefs work and why people have them, and there are some cool people on this forum.

Edited June 5, 2011 by xSilverPhinx

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307269384' post='2250116']
Everyone who has ever been in existence, all people, all living creatures, all inanimate objects have been atheists at some point.
When a person is born they have no understanding of anything, and hence no belief in gods. To believe in gods one must be taught.[/quote]

Yes. I thought it relevant to ask KoC if he was ever an atheist while old enough to think of potential consequences of a lack of belief.

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307212927' post='2249931']
I guess they could, I doubt I would ever see miscarriages as a supernatural occurrence. I mean it looks like that's more in line with what deism is about. There's the natural world and there's a god but god does not interfere in the natural world. There are also all the versions of god in between.

Whenever I speculate on these things I think that a deistic god would be more believable, not an interventionist god.

You don't even have to believe that god is specifically out to get you to be bothered by these things once you accept that one that intervenes exists.

What I'm saying that once you accept that there is a mind behind the creation of the universe it raises all sort of moral questions for natural mechanisms such as whether there is the intent to cause something or not. For one, how do you even know what god intended to cause and what he didn't? If he didn't cause it, then why didn't he intervene to prevent harm, being all powerful? Why [i]let[/i] bad things happen? [/quote]

Just to add to this, I'm aware that death, for instance, is a natural necessity, besides being a normal part of life. I think it's important to differentiate between what would be "harm" at the individual level and what that would mean at the societal level, or even in the natural order of things.

Most people don't want to die, it's an instinctual behaviour. We as human beings are as far as we know the only species that is aware of our own death and at the same time don't find our deaths the least bit desirable. Many would consider death to be harmful in their personal lives because it causes both anxiety and suffering.

At the societal level, it changes a bit and maintaining a level of order at this scale is indifferent to what individual perceive as "harm". A group attempting to sustain itself would run into some serious problems if people got old and didn't die. Population control and sustaining a high number of less productive citizens would be a tricky issue to solve, if it could be solved. If people didn't get old and could remain productive, there would still be the question of population number control in a finite world with finite resources.

How do you reconcile what is a necessity at this scale and the individuals that the level consists of? What I think religious arguments fail at is really considering the individual is some cases, such as euthanasia for those who are terminally ill and voluntarily wish to end their lives. They would be only taking their own and not infringing on the right of another. I hold the opposite view to the mainstream religious argument.

At the natural level taking into account the way the world is, if there was no death, there wouldn't be any biological change. Death is a necessary ingredient for evolution and higher adaptiveness to changing environments. It's all very dynamic at this level.

An interventionist god could be justified in [i]letting [/i]death happen, the world being set up as it is.

So which one would be the objective truth? Things that should happen, should happen?

After reading a bit more on A.J Ayer and listening to some of his interviews, I've come to a conclusion that even the psychological attributions of meaning* and purpose to natural events or things that [i]should[/i] happen because they [i]do[/i] happen can be dismissed as subjectivity.

You could argue that god was the one who established order in the first place, but it does nothing to support the idea that there is an objective morality.

* Neurologists such as Ramachandran say that attributions of meaning is in some way part of our type of consciousness due to an overdeveloped language center in the brain. Humans also have an in built hyperactive agency detector which is responsible for attributing conscious intentional agents behind events and therefore meaning to possibly meaningless events. Basically asking 'why' things happen.

Edited June 5, 2011 by xSilverPhinx

[CephaDrigan]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307269384' post='2250116']
I won't debate the existence of god because I am quite sure there is no material evidence and hence discussions will only delve into theology which to me is the world of make believe.

[/quote]

I'm just wondering, what do you think of Lanciano?

I'm merely curious to hear what a non-Catholic says about it.

[stevil]

[quote name='CephaDrigan' timestamp='1307289689' post='2250158']
I'm just wondering, what do you think of Lanciano?

I'm merely curious to hear what a non-Catholic says about it.
[/quote]
We have the technology, DNA test the stuff.

[CephaDrigan]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307291850' post='2250165']
We have the technology, DNA test the stuff.
[/quote]

What do you want them to DNA test?
They determined that the blood type was AB+, and has been in a natural state for 12 centuries, which would normally dry up in a day.

[stevil]

[quote name='CephaDrigan' timestamp='1307299051' post='2250194']
What do you want them to DNA test?
They determined that the blood type was AB+, and has been in a natural state for 12 centuries, which would normally dry up in a day.
[/quote]
You can't determine a match based on a simple blood type match, no-one would get convicted of any crime on that evidence, we need something much more convincing. A lot can be understood from DNA. Does the DNA match other eurochrist miracles? Does it indicate the ethnicity of the person? Does it show that genetically the person was remarkable in some way or very similar to other people from that region?
The not drying up bit is interesting, but I don't know what tests should be done with that regard.

[CephaDrigan]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307307267' post='2250226']
You can't determine a match based on a simple blood type match, no-one would get convicted of any crime on that evidence, we need something much more convincing. A lot can be understood from DNA. Does the DNA match other eurochrist miracles? Does it indicate the ethnicity of the person? Does it show that genetically the person was remarkable in some way or very similar to other people from that region?
The not drying up bit is interesting, but I don't know what tests should be done with that regard.
[/quote]

The AB+ at least matches other Eucharistic miracles as well as the Shroud of Torin. But even if we did get a DNA test for him, I doubt that it would show anything all that remarkable (other than that his blood hasn't dried up for 11 centuries), because it was his soul that allowed him to perform miracles, not his body. What[i] does[/i] it make you think though?, because you seem to be showing some curiosity.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307269384' post='2250116']
Its nice of you to speak on my behalf again as you have done before in a previous post. But actually, I am here to understand better a contingent of people that live within the society that I do. We have many Christians in my country and I do find an online forum as a good opportunity to better understand them. In real life, questioning ones belief can and does rub people the wrong way. I have been on an atheist forum for a few months and have observed many trollish Christian visitors. They often say "crazy" things and I found an opportunity to join this forum where I could actually meet non trollish Christians and potentially get a better understanding of them. I won't debate the existence of god because I am quite sure there is no material evidence and hence discussions will only delve into theology which to me is the world of make believe.
I am not sure why generally the theists visiting the atheist forum are only Christians, possibly because Christians have a huge drive to evangalise, where as muslims, jewish, hindus do not. But anyway, I most likely will be visiting some of those forums too, to get a better understanding of those communities, the people not the religion. But these people are by far a minority in my country. So in summary I am not here to validate my beliefs, (I am pretty secure in my stance, although I am open to listening to others view), I do not long for god on any level. I do not see god as anything more than an imaginary concept.
[/quote]

Not to be picky but you don't have any [i]belief[/i] remember? It's purely negative. Still it is odd, I don't believe in UFO or other such like minded nonsense. I do not go to UFO/conspiracy websites to understand people better who believe in that nonsense. It's a waste of time they believe in nonsense their crazy they believe in imagery things that are real. I understand why Christians go to atheists boards but really if atheists doubt so much the existence of God and dismiss it as a form of imagination or whatever nonsense it makes little sense to be curious in Christianity or Christians. It shouldn't matter but it does and that in itself is curious. Curiousity in Christianity or any form of belief in God or gods may, may just be what you say it is, and it may be something more than that. It may be a longing for something more than nothing a longing for God, or to validate their lack of belief.