KnightofChrist Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307132297' post='2249579'] The difference is that I am willing to discuss my opinions and contemplate and consider the opinions of others. I am even willing to change my opinion if presented with new and relevant information. [/quote] It's simply a waste of time to debate relative opinions. Without the objective truth of objective morality all there is is relative opinion and debating such things is quite pointless. It's like having a debate on what cookies are the best, or if green apples are better than red apples. If you state green are better that's true for you if I state red are better then that's true for me. Both opinions being opinions are equal in value. Also there is a great flaw in an Atheist using society as a source or base for morality and truth. Most societies believe God or gods exists, this however does not stop the Atheist from rejecting God or gods. So if the Atheist can reject God or gods, racist groups can reject that certain groups are persons, murders can reject that murder is immoral and wrong, men can reject the belief that women are equals, or others can reject any other societal norms and constructs. It's called relativism, it makes all opinions of 'truth' equal and destroys any idea that there is any form of right and wrong. Edited June 3, 2011 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevil Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307137284' post='2249619'] It's simply a waste of time to debate relative opinions. Without the objective truth of objective morality all there is is relative opinion and debating such things is quite pointless. It's like having a debate on what cookies are the best, or if green apples are better than red apples. If you state green are better that's true for you if I state red are better then that's true for me. Both opinions being opinions are equal in value. [/quote] I feel that all we have to go on is opinion in many circumstances, I don't find it a waste of time to get to know and understand the opinions of others and even explore my opinions with others. If you go into debate with a mindset of exploration and learning then you will get value and you might even learn something in the process. If you go in with a mindset that you are right, everyone else is wrong and you want to show this by winning the argument then you will find the debate a waste of time. All that being said i feel we are always coming back to this concept of objective morality, so i will create a thread and lets explore this concept. [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307137284' post='2249619'] Also there is a great flaw in an Atheist using society as a source or base for morality and truth. Most societies believe God or gods exists, this however does not stop the Atheist from rejecting God or gods. So if the Atheist can reject God or gods, racist groups can reject that certain groups are persons, murders can reject that murder is immoral and wrong, men can reject the belief that women are equals, or others can reject any other societal norms and constructs. It's called relativism, it makes all opinions of 'truth' equal and destroys any idea that there is any form of right and wrong. [/quote] Atheism is not about alignment of personal beliefs or morals or stances. There is not an Atheist mantra to suggest that all people should align with the majority. In my opinion Atheism could be seen as a passive stance, by that I mean it only applies to me. "I have a lack of belief in god", this does not mean that I think other people should have a lack of belief in god or that I should align my understanding with everyone else. It does not mean that I should impose my idea of right and wrong on others. However a functioning society requires rules that apply to everyone, and members of that society need to comply for that society to function appropriately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307140436' post='2249632'] I feel that all we have to go on is opinion in many circumstances, I don't find it a waste of time to get to know and understand the opinions of others and even explore my opinions with others. If you go into debate with a mindset of exploration and learning then you will get value and you might even learn something in the process. If you go in with a mindset that you are right, everyone else is wrong and you want to show this by winning the argument then you will find the debate a waste of time. All that being said i feel we are always coming back to this concept of objective morality, so i will create a thread and lets explore this concept. Atheism is not about alignment of personal beliefs or morals or stances. There is not an Atheist mantra to suggest that all people should align with the majority. In my opinion Atheism could be seen as a passive stance, by that I mean it only applies to me. "I have a lack of belief in god", this does not mean that I think other people should have a lack of belief in god or that I should align my understanding with everyone else. It does not mean that I should impose my idea of right and wrong on others. However a functioning society requires rules that apply to everyone, and members of that society need to comply for that society to function appropriately. [/quote] Thank you for your opinion. Communist Atheists had another. Both opinions are equal in value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307140792' post='2249635'] Thank you for your opinion. Communist Atheists had another. Both opinions are equal in value. [/quote] You know, you're really not doing anyone any favors here, jussayin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1307140914' post='2249636'] You know, you're really not doing anyone any favors here, jussayin [/quote] Too bad. It should be viewed as a devils advocate arguement. Rejection of objective truth and objective morality is the result of relativism and that results in all [i]truths[/i] becoming opinions, and all opinions are equal. There is no right or wrong without God, and there is no point for existence that is objective. Life is meaningless and of no real value without God. But as you can see the atheists are trying in different ways to hold on to some form of objective truth and even some form of objective right and wrong. This is a conflict of what they profess to believe. Edited June 3, 2011 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted June 4, 2011 Author Share Posted June 4, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307130595' post='2249566'] Love does not exist without God. Love would be yet another made up social construct. So for an atheist to say he 'loves' anyone is for the atheist to believe or state something that is only imaginary. What a depressing pointless existance to think that the love I would have for my wife does not in fact exist but is only imaginary and is just a product of societal social constructs, and cheicmcial and biological functions in my body. [/quote] Love is an experience, it is felt, there's nothing to suggest that it exists outside minds capable of feeling it. Saying that love does not exist without god, however, does not follow. That is pure subjective opinion, and just because you believe in god does not make it factual (objective). [quote]I'm not confused at all. You've not stated any facts other than 1+1=2, and even that is sometimes argued as relative. And thanks but I dismiss the rest of this as just your personal opinion which is in no way binding in reality.[/quote] I think you are. Your attack on wikipedia (and by extension other encyclopedias and information databases, however crude) shows this. How is 1+1=2 relative? And we all make our realities... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 [quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307146263' post='2249671'] And we all make our realities... [/quote] You're a solipsist too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted June 4, 2011 Author Share Posted June 4, 2011 (edited) [quote]You're a solipsist too?[/quote] Only on very insecure days, when I question every subjective opinion I have which may not be binding in reality... Edit: not usually. I see my opinions as being models of reality in some sense, which could be changed to accomodate new facts and accept or dismiss interpretations of other opinions and facts. Edited June 4, 2011 by xSilverPhinx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted June 4, 2011 Author Share Posted June 4, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1307128502' post='2249547'] First of all, the commandment is thou shalt not [b]murder[/b]. that is an important distinction to make. Secondly, have you ever heard of the concept of free will? [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will[/url] [/quote] I stand corrected. What's the difference between 'kill' and 'murder' if there is intent to steal a life? If god commands it then it is killing but not murder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 [quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307055618' post='2249317'] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma"]Euthyphro's Dilemma[/url] "Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?" [/quote] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYNHUFgdpk4[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1307148415' post='2249703'] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYNHUFgdpk4[/media] [/quote] Makes sense :: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted June 4, 2011 Author Share Posted June 4, 2011 [quote name='sixpence' timestamp='1307128634' post='2249551'] *arbitrarily enters the conversation* i think that all goodness exists within God, and are "good" due to the inherent nature of God (not arbitrary commands)... but those are just my initial thoughts... [/quote] Okay, so you view it as god is intrinsically good. Just to see where you stand on the issue, would you also say that all good things from god? Also, do you see god as having free will to change what is inherent to him? If so, then they would be arbitrary, because then objective morality would change in accordance to god's 'moral state', you could say. Divine moral commands would still be objective according to this view but would not be eternal, and if they're not eternal then they can't be intrinsically good. I think a structure of evolving morality can fit this picture, but it will still run into the same problems that we relativists deal with when two situations come into conflict. Something is going to have to be a lesser evil. If not, then god himself would have a moral standard which he abides to which he couldn't change because it's intrinsically good and therefore couldn't be changed into something not good. What are your views on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted June 4, 2011 Author Share Posted June 4, 2011 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1307148415' post='2249703'] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYNHUFgdpk4[/media] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 [quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307147516' post='2249687'] I stand corrected. What's the difference between 'kill' and 'murder' if there is intent to steal a life? If god commands it then it is killing but not murder? [/quote] Killing is any taking of a life. Murder is the taking of an innocent life. Not all life is innocent. If someone attacks you, you are within your rights to defend your life, up to and including lethal force. Thus self defense (and on a larger scale [b]just[/b] war) are completely appropriate times for killing (if its necessary). Murder is taking of a life that is innocent (has not forfeited its right to life) thus is always wrong. Please provide an example of where God ordered killing, i'm honestly not that well versed in scripture (although i'm taking steps to rectify this deficiency) and so off of the top of my head i cannot think of any instances of God ordering murder. Legitimate killing? yes. Murder? no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSilverPhinx Posted June 4, 2011 Author Share Posted June 4, 2011 [quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307135913' post='2249615'] [quote]I think that the main difference here is that those people willing to murder people that happen to be atheists fulfill [i]all[/i] requirements for atheism, although those Catholics that do so are misguided, and do not follow all of the teachings that they are supposed to follow. [/quote] I still don't see the point of the argument. Atheism does not lead to being a murderer. They may fullful all the rerequirements of atheism, but also fulfil all the requirements of being human and all the requirements of being alive, you could even say all the requirements of being god's creation. I just don't get the point, how does this imply anything about atheism? [/quote] Seconded. Athiest only means lacks a belief in gods, it says nothing about an athiest's beliefs. I won't deny that Stalin was a athiest, be he killed millions [i]because[/i] he was an athiest? That makes as much sense as killing millions because you don't believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Athiesm is not even a set of beliefs, it's just a broader categorization of structured beliefs with the only thing in common is a lack of belief in god(s). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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