Vincent Vega Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1305354832' post='2241271'] Or maybe, just maybe, some people are provided by God with a particularly gifted understanding of the Liturgy [/quote] Oh, right, I forgot that the Traditional Latin Mass attendees are the real Catholics and the rest of us are just stupid pew warming yokels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 Nihil-Do you consider me to be unreverent because I have no desire to attend a Latin mass? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I think every Roman Catholic ought to have the desire to attend the Traditional Latin Mass, not necessarily as their only mass, but as a way of enriching one's love and understanding of one's own rite. it's a treasure to the Church, the Pope is here treating it as such. the Pope is not treating it as something to simply be allowed for those who prefer it, that's something Universae Ecclesia I think is showing us. it's a treasure for all Latins. we should give it honor, if on no other level, the way Americans should honor the Constitution. while the Traditional Latin Mass can be abused as well (though those abuses tend to be of a different variety), it's not solely because of the voluntary crowd that you find more abuses at the NO on average. while you can't exactly quantify this, I think it is a pretty easy argument to make that the average NO has lost its liturgical sense far more than the average Traditional Latin Mass before the council. there were some problems, sure, (which were being dealt with before the council), but the problems that have infected so many NOs today have cut to the core of the sense of liturgy far deeper than anything that was going on before the council. it would be my unequivicol position that an old lady saying a rosary is a practice much more consonant with liturgical prayer and worship than someone at a clown mass of some sort. the other day I read an analogy by some software IT type person that I really liked... the Novus Ordo GIRM has vulnerabilities in its software. sure, the Traditional Latin Mass swam around in the same virus infected world that the NO does (though the viruses may have exponentially increased since then), but the Traditional Latin Mass has built into it some very heavy duty firewalls, some great anti-virus programs. the GIRM allows for so many options, including many that open up to basically anything, that the viruses are much more able to take hold and that's why you see the problems really cutting into the reverence of a mass at a very basic level until it is almost unrecognizable as a liturgy. now, of course the Novus Ordo GIRM's software is making options that in theory should allow for more usability of various worship functions, but they're easily exploitable by viruses. the Traditional Latin Masses stuff is rigidly defined to avoid this, basically the only thing you can pick from is what you'd find in the approved APP store that Apple (read: The Vatican) has certified free from viruses and all that jazz, and there are therefore pros and cons to this, but I think it's a good analogy to the issue of the difference between the way the two masses are done. my biggest pet peeve with the vulnerability of the GIRM software is allowing songs to replace antiphons and propers. even Bugnini's 1969 Consillium says that this practice CHEATS the Christian faithful. we need to make the proper antiphons an app that is mandatory to install in all liturgies. in my opinion, Universae Ecclesiae is meant for what the name says: the whole Church. not just those who have already found their preference for the Traditional Latin Mass. it is also meant for those who have preference for the NO. UE and SP have opened the door to free priests to share that treasure from the old rites with all of the faithful, because nothing will make the NO more reverent than grounding the people who attend it in their roots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 14, 2011 Author Share Posted May 14, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1305385278' post='2241338'] Oh, right, I forgot that the Traditional Latin Mass attendees are the real Catholics and the rest of us are just stupid pew warming yokels. [/quote] Not what I said. [quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1305386811' post='2241342'] Nihil-Do you consider me to be unreverent because I have no desire to attend a Latin mass? [/quote] Nope. Also not what I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 btw, I'm not accusing any individual of being irreverent. if you've never found yourself at a liturgy where the most reverent thing you could do was turn your ears off and focus your eyes only on the tabernacle (if you could even find it), then count yourself lucky. in any event, people can be reverent at irreverent liturgies; and people can be irreverent at reverent liturgies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides quarens intellectum Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I want to attend an EF Mass, and to be able to one day understand a bit of what's going on in that form. However, I wish that the EF were made available at normal, OF parishes. I have lived in two dioceses now that both had a separate EF-only parish, which is great that that form of the Mass is being made available, but the people who attend those EF-only parishes only turned me away from any desire to keep going there. My OF-parish offered a few EF Masses a few years ago on a few Marian feast days, but our elderly priest had such a hard time with them that he didn't continue offering them (he has problems celebrating the OF because of his age). I pray that more OF parish priests will learn the EF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1305336281' post='2241129'] My point exactly. [i]Why[/i] does a Catholic choose the E.F..? [i]Why[/i] is there, on average, more reverence at a T.L.M.? The extra bells and whistles are something to look at. Do more reverent people go to the EF because they like the bells and whistles? I don't think that's the answer. Maybe a few are there for purely aesthetic reasons, and I think that's a reason that many people choose to go for the first time, but bells and whistles get old. You get used to them and they don't impress you anymore... so why stay? Why go week after week, when you're looked down upon for it, and maybe you have to drive farther, or get up earlier, or take more time out of your day? Basically, we need to look at it as an integrated whole. What attracts people, what makes people stay, and what makes these people take their faith so seriously? Where is the common thread? [/quote] [quote]Or maybe, just maybe, some people are provided by God with a particularly gifted understanding of the Liturgy, and they see the great treasure of our Church that is the T.L.M.. [/quote] [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1305356487' post='2241283'] Furthermore, there was nothing patronizing about what I said to DS. I was genuinely asking what it means to her, because as you very clearly illustrated, some people believe it means radically different things, and Ecclesia Dei was quite clear about how it may be applied in this situation. [/quote] Frankly these posts demonstrate that you've been patronizing the entire time. "particularly gifted understanding"? more "reverent"? If you dont understand that you've been patronizing, you need to look it up in the dictionary. Catholics who think they need to evangelize to orthodox Catholics are nothing short of patronizing. I've never had a single problem with anyone who enjoys the EF or finds it more reverent. But when you suggest that the people who attend the EF are more reverent or more gifted, then you're being obnoxious. [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1305357170' post='2241289'] I said, in my above posts, nothing not spoken by those greater than me, and those who have or had immediate authority over us, the flock of the Catholic Church. Who speaks for the Church better than they? Without the Fathers of the Church, the Doctors, our priests and bishops and cardinals, I know nothing. God gave them to me that I might learn from them and see what they see. That is continuity. That is Tradition. [/quote] The Novus Ordo is also Tradition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1305392772' post='2241377'] Not what I said. [/quote] Not in so many words, but the sentiment was there. You called NO attendees less "gifted" than those who attend the EF. [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1305398575' post='2241450'] Frankly these posts demonstrate that you've been patronizing the entire time. "particularly gifted understanding"? more "reverent"? If you dont understand that you've been patronizing, you need to look it up in the dictionary. Catholics who think they need to evangelize to orthodox Catholics is nothing short of patronizing. I've never had a single problem with anyone who enjoys the EF or finds it more reverent. But when you suggest that the people who attend the EF are more reverent or more gifted, then you're being obnoxious. [/quote] This. When the Pope or my bishop tell me not to attend the NO any longer because it is an inferior Mass to the EF, then I will stop. Until then, I'd thank you to mind your business and keep your preferences to yourself. Edited May 14, 2011 by USAirwaysIHS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vee Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 I remember hearing Fr Mitch Pacwa mention how back in the day when all Latin Rite Masses were in Latin that, guess what, abuses happened too. Abuses and reverence can happen in any Mass of any of the 27 (I think it is) different valid Rites that compose the One, Holy Catholic Church. There are more than two Masses and Im sure that those who attend the Chaldean, Melkite, Ukrainan etc Rites would agree. To say that Latin is the be all end all is ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 [quote name='vee8' timestamp='1305402646' post='2241492'] I remember hearing Fr Mitch Pacwa mention how back in the day when all Latin Rite Masses were in Latin that, guess what, abuses happened too. Abuses and reverence can happen in any Mass of any of the 27 (I think it is) different valid Rites that compose the One, Holy Catholic Church. There are more than two Masses and Im sure that those who attend the Chaldean, Melkite, Ukrainan etc Rites would agree. To say that Latin is the be all end all is ridiculous. [/quote] I attend the EF Masses almost every Sunday, the last few Sundays I haven't been able to get there, so I'll go to the Novus Ordo. But I don't consider myself more reverent or holy than those who attend any other Rite. I guess some of us are gifted with a sense of the sacred in every Liturgy the Church approves. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatherineM Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 [quote name='vee8' timestamp='1305402646' post='2241492'] I remember hearing Fr Mitch Pacwa mention how back in the day when all Latin Rite Masses were in Latin that, guess what, abuses happened too. Abuses and reverence can happen in any Mass of any of the 27 (I think it is) different valid Rites that compose the One, Holy Catholic Church. There are more than two Masses and Im sure that those who attend the Chaldean, Melkite, Ukrainan etc Rites would agree. To say that Latin is the be all end all is ridiculous. [/quote] As one of the few people who attended the mass before the vernacular was instituted, there were abuses. My brothers were responsible for some of the altar boy issues. We had priests who cut out sections of the service during football season. Our music director had been an opera singer before marrying, and she did some pretty weird stuff with the music. Whenever humans are involved, abuses will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 14, 2011 Author Share Posted May 14, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1305398575' post='2241450'] Frankly these posts demonstrate that you've been patronizing the entire time. "particularly gifted understanding"? more "reverent"? If you dont understand that you've been patronizing, you need to look it up in the dictionary. Catholics who think they need to evangelize to orthodox Catholics are nothing short of patronizing. I've never had a single problem with anyone who enjoys the EF or finds it more reverent. But when you suggest that the people who attend the EF are more reverent or more gifted, then you're being obnoxious. [/quote] You're reading something you want to find into my post. Except of course, I'm the obnoxious one. Did you read any of the points I brought up about the perceived failings of the Novus Ordo? [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1305400867' post='2241472'] Not in so many words, but the sentiment was there. You called NO attendees less "gifted" than those who attend the EF. [/quote] That is not what I said. I said some people are more gifted. Do you deny this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1305409060' post='2241537'] You're reading something you want to find into my post. Except of course, I'm the obnoxious one. Did you read any of the points I brought up about the perceived failings of the Novus Ordo? [/quote] Here's a quick English lesson Nihil. If you are in a discussion and you use descriptive words like "more" (as in more reverent) or "gifted " (as in "particularly gifted understanding of the Liturgy,") These are dependent upon it being more than something else or gifted here where there are no gifts there. Just because you don't mention Novus Ordo. You of course are comparing the EF to the Novus Ordo. Unless of course you are saying that people are more reverent at the EF then at swine auction and I misunderstood. Then of course I completely agree with you but I find your comparison dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 14, 2011 Author Share Posted May 14, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1305410687' post='2241543'] Here's a quick English lesson Nihil. If you are in a discussion and you use descriptive words like "more" (as in more reverent) or "gifted " (as in "particularly gifted understanding of the Liturgy,") These are dependent upon it being more than something else or gifted here where there are no gifts there. Just because you don't mention Novus Ordo. You of course are comparing the EF to the Novus Ordo. Unless of course you are saying that people are more reverent at the EF then at swine auction and I misunderstood. Then of course I completely agree with you but I find your comparison dumb. [/quote] All I'm saying is that some people have particular gifts in understanding the Liturgy. In my experience I've found more of these people at the EF rather than the OF, which relates back to how the *average* attendee of the traditional Mass will tend to be better informed, etc. than the *average* attendee of the new Order. More importantly, this was not the crux of my post. Did you actually continue reading where I brought up a handful of quotes directly from the mouth of then Cardinal Ratzinger, and from Cardinal Ottaviani? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 14, 2011 Share Posted May 14, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1305410993' post='2241544'] All I'm saying is that some people have particular gifts in understanding the Liturgy. In my experience I've found more of these people at the EF rather than the OF, which relates back to how the *average* attendee of the traditional Mass will tend to be better informed, etc. than the *average* attendee of the new Order. More importantly, this was not the crux of my post. Did you actually continue reading where I brought up a handful of quotes directly from the mouth of then Cardinal Ratzinger, and from Cardinal Ottaviani? [/quote] What do you think the chances are that I've read those quotes well before you posted them and possibly before you ever heard of Cardinal Ottaviani? (chances are pretty good) Did you not read my post that said that the Novus Ordo is also a part of Tradition? I figure as long as you're assuming I don't read what you post, You probably don't read what I say. And I still disagree with your premise. I still think you are trying to evangelize to orthodox Catholics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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