New Instruction On Summorum Pontificum

[kafka]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1305338738' post='2241178']
Do you agree that the law of prayer is the law of belief ([i]lex orandi lex credendi[/i])? The Vatican does. What does it mean to you?
[/quote]
I dont understand why you have to make a patronizing remark like that to DS. Do you understand what lex orandi lex credendi means? Based on your posts I dont think you have a clue what it means.

Are you a representative of the Vatican?

What do I think lex orandi lex credendi means? I think it first has nothing to do with outward liturgical forms, rubrics and gestures. It has everything to do with the will and intellect which is the soul. The will and intellect seeks, searches and desires God and plunges into the depths of God's Revelation. The result is prayer and meditation. When the Faithful living in a certain time and age prayerfully agree on a matter of faith or morals then this is an expression of Living Tradition and Living Scripture (sometimes it is an infallible expression like Vatican II taught). So we saw in the 20th century the development of a liturgical rite for prenatals, infants and children who die without baptism of water. The prayerful agreement is now that these prenatals, infants, and children die in the state of sanctifying grace. The prayerful agreement partially came in response to the growing number of children who die without baptism of water (through abortions and in vitro fertilization). So even though there is at the present no formal Magisterial teaching on exactly what happens to these prenatals, infants and children, [i]there is [/i]a prayerful agreement expressed by Living Tradition and Living Scripture that they are saved, therefore there is no more reason to deny them a liturgical rite as Catholics of previous ages rather unjustly and pharisaically denied it to them and to the parents and relatives. And this thanks to the liturgical reform after the Council. Thank you Vatican II for being merciful to God's children and breaking the bonds of injustice and pharasaism. Thank you Holy Spirit for breaking through our stiff necks.

That is a modern example of lex orandi lex credendi. Living, dynamic, relevant, liturgical. We are moving beyond all the pettiness of being fixated on outward gestures, forms, and rubrics. And God will fix all this petty fighting over them when He thoroughly transfigures the Church. Then we will understand all things.

Edited May 14, 2011 by kafka

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Maximilianus' timestamp='1305355989' post='2241276']
I just hope this means that maybe, just maybe, the faithful in my deanery won't have to make going to an EF the equivalent of going on a pilgrimage to a distant holy site. Peeps like me aren't asking for much, just at minimum the opportunity to make it to an usus antiquior without travelling across the state or to a different diocese.
[/quote]
Darn right it's not asking much. Yet somehow, just for wanting to attend the EF, you're just a bit more suspicious. Just a bit potentially more inclined to be unfaithful, disobedient. Is it true? Or are we being demonized? It's easier to fight the enemy you've made up yourself. Is that what's happened in the Church? Are the modernists and progressives demonizing us, sowing distrust, and consigning us to the ghetto of "Pre-VII Catholicism"? Ridiculous. I do not accept that it must be this way.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1305356130' post='2241277']
I dont understand why you have to make a patronizing remark like that to DS. Do you understand what lex orandi lex credendi means? Based on your posts I dont think you have a clue what it means.

Are you a representative of the Vatican?
What do I think lex orandi lex credendi means? I think it first has nothing to do with outward liturgical forms, rubrics and gestures.
[snip]
That is a modern example of lex orandi lex credendi. Living, dynamic, relevant, liturgical. We are moving beyond all the pettiness of being fixated on outward gestures, forms, and rubrics. And God will fix all this petty fighting over them when He transfigures the Church.
[/quote]
The Vatican seems to disagree that it "has nothing to do with outward liturgical forms, rubrics and gestures."

"The Holy Father, having recalled the concern of the Sovereign Pontiffs in caring for the Sacred Liturgy and in their recognition of liturgical books, reaffirms the traditional principle, recognised from time immemorial and necessary to be maintained into the future, that “each particular Church must be in accord with the universal Church not only regarding the doctrine of the faith and sacramental signs, but also as to the usages universally handed down by apostolic and unbroken tradition. These are to be maintained not only so that errors may be avoided, but also so that the faith may be passed on in its integrity, since the Church's rule of prayer (lex orandi) corresponds to her rule of belief (lex credendi)."

Seems like a clear link to me. Pretty rock solid.

[Nihil Obstat]

Furthermore, there was nothing patronizing about what I said to DS. I was genuinely asking what it means to her, because as you very clearly illustrated, some people believe it means radically different things, and Ecclesia Dei was quite clear about how it may be applied in this situation.

[kafka]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1305356392' post='2241282']
The Vatican seems to disagree that it "has nothing to do with outward liturgical forms, rubrics and gestures."

"The Holy Father, having recalled the concern of the Sovereign Pontiffs in caring for the Sacred Liturgy and in their recognition of liturgical books, reaffirms the traditional principle, recognised from time immemorial and necessary to be maintained into the future, that “each particular Church must be in accord with the universal Church not only regarding the doctrine of the faith and sacramental signs, but also as to the usages universally handed down by apostolic and unbroken tradition. These are to be maintained not only so that errors may be avoided, but also so that the faith may be passed on in its integrity, since the Church's rule of prayer (lex orandi) corresponds to her rule of belief (lex credendi)."

Seems like a clear link to me. Pretty rock solid.
[/quote]
The whole spirit of my post blew right over you like everything else. I said first it has nothing to do with it, primarily. You erased that from my quote. I was presenting something deeper that you dont see yet. And you are still playing God with your excessive Vatican quoting and false representations.

[kafka]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1305356487' post='2241283']
Furthermore, there was nothing patronizing about what I said to DS. I was genuinely asking what it means to her, because as you very clearly illustrated, some people believe it means radically different things, and Ecclesia Dei was quite clear about how it may be applied in this situation.
[/quote]
I am sorry, but I simply dont think you are truly genuine anymore. Maybe you dont explicitly intend it, but I think you are losing it Nihil. I can feel it. So that is why I interpreted it the way I did. So be it. I speak my heart.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1305356793' post='2241284']
The whole spirit of my post blew right over you like everything else. I said first it has nothing to do with it, primarily. You erased that from my quote. I was presenting something deeper that you dont see yet. And you are still playing God with your excessive Vatican quoting and false representations.
[/quote]
Oh am I? Am I playing God? Or are you, rather, ignoring the learned and faithful lead of those better educated, more experienced, and [b]more authoritative[/b] than yourself, and instead holding fast to [i]your own theology[/i], which appears to quite gallingly deemphasize to the point of irrelevance the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and utterly ignores the transcending value of the ars celebrandi?
Who is recognizing their Shepherd?

Edited May 14, 2011 by Nihil Obstat

[Nihil Obstat]

I said, in my above posts, nothing not spoken by those greater than me, and those who have or had immediate authority over us, the flock of the Catholic Church. Who speaks for the Church better than they? Without the Fathers of the Church, the Doctors, our priests and bishops and cardinals, I know nothing. God gave them to me that I might learn from them and see what they see. That is continuity. That is Tradition.

[kafka]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1305357002' post='2241287']
Oh am I? Am I playing God? Or are you, rather, ignoring the learned and faithful lead of those better educated, more experienced, and more authoritative than yourself, and instead holding fast to [i]your own theology[/i], which appears to quite gallingly deemphasize to the point of irrelevance the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and utterly ignores the transcending value of the ars celebrandi?
Who is recognizing their Shepherd?
[/quote]
I knew this was going to happen.

You are acting like the Shepherd and you are not him. I am just trying to offer some balance here.

Edited May 14, 2011 by kafka

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1305357560' post='2241291']
I knew this was going to happen.

You are acting like the Shepherd and you are not him. I am just trying to offer some balance here.
[/quote]
I am no Shepherd. I follow the Shepherd. What have I said in my posts that disagrees with our Fathers and our Princes and Lords of the Church?
Who or what are you following? Your own intellect? Why is your opinion enlightened and faithful, and mine is pharisaical and misguided and arrogant?

[kafka]

this is getting absurd.

correction. Has gotten absurd.

[Nihil Obstat]

It is no fault of mine that you are ignoring very clear instruction from Popes and Cardinals.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Maximilianus' timestamp='1305355989' post='2241276']
I just hope this means that maybe, just maybe, the faithful in my deanery won't have to make going to an EF the equivalent of going on a pilgrimage to a distant holy site. Peeps like me aren't asking for much, just at minimum the opportunity to make it to an usus antiquior without travelling across the state or to a different diocese.
[/quote]
Bingo. Actually, I'd also be quite happy if more NO Masses were celebrated with the reverence they should. There is one at the Cathedral that makes use of Gregorian chant and such during the NO, but that isn't the norm. I do think how we celebrate our liturgy matters. Whether EF or OF, it should be celebrated with reverence and without abuse.

Nihil & Kafka - please calm down. I know you're both passionate about this, and that's great, but you obviously aren't going to agree with each other any time soon.

[Noel's angel]

Arrogance is a terrible thing.

CatherineM hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305353154' post='2241263']
Uh, maybe because most "average" Catholics attend the Novus Ordo, and only those who have a more unique interest in the liturgy make it a point to seek out the Traditional Latin Mass? Just a thought.

If the situation was reversed, and the Traditional Latin Mass was the "norm" that the "average" Catholic attended, and the Novus Ordo had to be seeked out by people with a special interest in it, I'm quite positive that you'd see a greater reverence in the Novus Ordo and many abuses in the Traditional Latin Mass.

I don't think a lot of people think of this when they think about what they think about, but it seems rather common sensical to me.
[/quote]

You are so right about this. Traditional Latin Mass attendees self-select. I know I did when I was a faithful Traditional Latin Mass-goer (3+years). The Novus Ordo is everybody else ranging from Fr Happy Clappypants to the Pope himself (the popes have always used the current Roman misssal in all their public masses, right? Never been a papal Traditional Latin Mass? Or did I miss that?)

There is a reason there was a big push for liturgy reform mid-20th century. It was because the Traditional Latin Mass was the "everybody" Mass and in a lot of places the liturgy was bad on an epic scale. There's a reason the Novus Ordo wasn't too great right out of the gate. It's because the "committee" that made it up was formed by what was at the time a very exhausted and poorly-celebrated Tridentine rite.