New Instruction On Summorum Pontificum

[Winchester]

There's probably some Protestants watching you people and laughing their butts off.

[vee]

I love you DS

Edited May 15, 2011 by vee8

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1305428831' post='2241648']
here's my piddly two cents:

I think quite a few of us here on phatmass have been to an EF Mass.

i don't know about everyone else, but I have been several times. Yes, they were beautiful liturgies (not that I would know an abuse if it smacked me in the face).

But honestly, if it was available in my city, I would probably not go every Sunday. I'd maybe go once a month. I like the OF when it is celebrated the way it should be. It's beautiful too. And I like knowing what's being said without looking at a translation.

It doesn't make me less reverent, or less smart, or less gifted of an understanding of liturgy, that I want to go to the NO. I'm just Catholic, and the beauty is that I can go to the OF or the EF and just be with Jesus in the Eucharist.
[/quote]
I have never been to an EF Mass, though I'd like to go. I'd gotten the time wrong for the one at the Oratory when I went to Birmingham to see Blessed John Henry Newman's relics, and the ones available in my diocese aren't exactly easy for me to get to, considering I don't have a car. I'd be incredibly happy if all OF Masses were celebrated the way they should be. In fact, I don't know that I'd care about actually going to an EF Mass if all OF Masses were celebrated as they should. It's a bit frustrating.

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1305432812' post='2241741']
Oh church mergers...guaranteed to drive people to new depths of anger. I know my home parish I was received into the Church in was once the "italian" parish. Now it's sorta the one for half the city because one by one the other nearby parishes were shut down and merged into it, and some people actually drive further away on principle rather than attend the "favored" parish. So I think it's the same sort of situation as you're saying happened, people stop going rather than go a few more minutes at most!

I personally don't see the problem...I can go to either parish in the town I'm in now with no problem. It's just that one is more conveniently placed to my apartment. Mass is Mass, no matter whose homily I enjoy more, or whose music I enjoy more.
[/quote]
Yep. My old priest describes Scousers as being tribal, and I think the description fits, from what I've seen. At the very least that's true in the Dingle and Toxteth (I used to live in the Dingle, with the parish being in Toxteth). If you don't know about [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxteth"]Toxteth[/url], you can see the Wiki page.

[ACS67]

[quote]Then, their next step is to embrace victimhood---a false type of martyrdom, elevating themselves for being persecuted for their point of view, when in actuality, it was rather not persecution for their opinion, but rather the frustration of others in reaction to their initial error[/quote]

I agree with DS on this. The level of "victimhood" that so-called "traditional" Catholics engulf themselves in is ridiculous and quite honestly insulting to real Christians who truly are being persecuted, like those in the Middle East at this very moment.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305471711' post='2241831']
There's probably some Protestants watching you people and laughing their butts off.
[/quote]
And the reason why these types of discussions are not allowed at phatmass. Thanks for the reminder. Thread closed.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1305468936' post='2241820']
Oh DS there you go again, unjustly judging the heart of your fellow man.
[/quote]
I'm sorry, but didn't you just call us bigots? I've been called unreverent and ungifted in my understanding of the literary. I haven't been apologized to.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1305473870' post='2241849']
I agree with DS on this. The level of "victimhood" that so-called "traditional" Catholics engulf themselves in is ridiculous and quite honestly insulting to real Christians who truly are being persecuted, like those in the Middle East at this very moment.
[/quote]
Amen.

If your feelings are hurt offer it up.
If you hurt someone's feelings, apologize, offer it up.
If you are prideful, offer it up.
If you are acting like as arse, stop, and offer it up.
If you judging people's motives or intentions, STOP, and offer it up.
If you can't accept an apology, deal with it, go to confession, and OFFER IT UP.
Seriously, this is not a testoserone party or a victimhood party or my marbles are better than your marbles party.

We are the BODY OF CHRIST, ACT like it.


1 At that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying: Who thinkest thou is the greater in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus calling unto him a little child, set him in the midst of them,
3 And said: Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, he is the greater in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And he that shall receive one such little child in my name, receiveth me.
6 But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe to the world because of scandals. For it must needs be that scandals come: but nevertheless woe to that man by whom the scandal cometh.
8 And if thy hand, or thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee having one eye to enter into life, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
10 See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12 What think you? If a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them should go astray: doth he not leave the ninety-nine in the mountains, and go to seek that which is gone astray?
13 And if it so be that he find it: Amen I say to you, he rejoiceth more for that, than for the ninety-nine that went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father, who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.
15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.
16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.
17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.
19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven.
20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
21 Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times.
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened to a king, who would take an account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to take the account, one was brought to him, that owed him ten thousand talents.
25 And as he had not wherewith to pay it, his lord commanded that he should be sold, and his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 But that servant falling down, besought him, saying: Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 And the lord of that servant being moved with pity, let him go and forgave him the debt.
28 But when that servant was gone out, he found one of his fellow servants that owed him an hundred pence: and laying hold of him, throttled him, saying: Pay what thou owest.
29 And his fellow servant falling down, besought him, saying: Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he paid the debt.
31 Now his fellow servants seeing what was done, were very much grieved, and they came and told their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me:
33 Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant, even as I had compassion on thee?
34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt.
35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

[Brother Adam]

I think this is the first time I have used my 'scholar powers' to post in a locked thread.

The Holy Father, Pope Benedict is truly the pope of Christian Unity. That is shocking for many people to hear who believe he is on the extreme right of all things liturgical and religious. However, in his great love for Christians everywhere and desire to see those who love the extraordinary form remain in full communion with the Church or return to full communion he has allowed the wider use of a beautiful liturgy. It is a liturgy that those who are attentive to will find has the power to propel them deeply into communio and the heart of Jesus. Of a recent poll of seminarians 85% said they would prefer to be ordained according to the extraordinary form rite.

That does not make the extraordinary form "better". To me that is like saying the EF is better than the Eastern Catholic divine liturgy. You are comparing apples to oranges. At its very core they are both valid Masses. Christ, who reigns as King over all, Savior of all men, condescends himself to the altar through his perpetual sacrifice so that we can be saved. The way in which the application of the OF form deformed the liturgy due to wide spread and lasting abuses, and the way in which the EF created burdens and became a stumbling block to full participation, both can draw something from the other. The EF and OF are mutually enriching.

From Father Zulsdorf:
[quote]
For going on two decades now, I have been saying that – in the mind of Papa Ratzinger – there was an idea that, were an more organic, long-term, process of liturgical growth and renewal and revision to be rekindled, there would eventually emerge a tertium quid, a form of the Roman Rite which would reflect the reforms mandated by the Second Vatican Council and the Roman Rite as received from the Church’s experiences of prayer over the centuries. That didn’t happen with the Novus Ordo, because it was an artificial product assembled on a desk. But the two forms, older and newer, used side-by-side, would create a gravitational pull upon each other.[/quote]

The goal, through all liturgy, is the glory of God. That is what I constantly have to draw my worship commission back to - this isn't about holding hands or using glass vessels because it is what we want or don't want. This is about giving glory to God. How does "Gift of Finest Wheat" give glory to God? Does it give greater glory to God than polyphony of Gregorian chant? How can we give the greatest glory to God we possibly can? Then, secondarily, how are we getting to heaven? How does the OF get us to heaven? How does the EF get us to heaven? How does all of the decisions we make about liturgy at our parish get us to heaven? Finally, caring for both our own soul, that of our family, and after giving the greatest glory to God, how are we getting our neighbor to heaven? Did the liturgical abuses in the OF keep our neighbor away because he missed the sacred encounter at Mass? Did the rudeness of those attending EF cause our neighbor to harden his heart.

From the moment I came here as a Baptist until now, our goal is all the same. Who is God, what does He want of us, and how to we do it?

In the end it's all about salvation. It's all about Jesus folks.

[Jaime]

this will , for now, be my last post in this thread