New Instruction On Summorum Pontificum

[BG45]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1305312276' post='2240949']
Yep. I know our Archbishop is dealing with many of the priests overseeing more than one parish, too, and the fact that most Scousers are very insular. Example: our old parish is overseen by a priest who also oversees 2 other parishes. All the parishes are within a 2 mile radius, if that. One of those was the one that was to be dedicated to the EF. When the idea of giving up one of the parishes arises, people act like it's the worst thing ever to go to another one that's just down the road. And those are all in Toxteth. To give more of an idea, someone from Toxteth might be persuaded to go to a parish in, say, Aigburth, but the reverse is less likely. When St Malachy's closed, many stopped going to Mass instead of just crossing Park Road and going to Our Lady of Mount Carmel. It's crazy.
[/quote]

Oh church mergers...guaranteed to drive people to new depths of anger. I know my home parish I was received into the Church in was once the "italian" parish. Now it's sorta the one for half the city because one by one the other nearby parishes were shut down and merged into it, and some people actually drive further away on principle rather than attend the "favored" parish. So I think it's the same sort of situation as you're saying happened, people stop going rather than go a few more minutes at most!

I personally don't see the problem...I can go to either parish in the town I'm in now with no problem. It's just that one is more conveniently placed to my apartment. Mass is Mass, no matter whose homily I enjoy more, or whose music I enjoy more.

[dUSt]

[quote name='BG45' timestamp='1305432812' post='2241741']
Mass is Mass, no matter whose homily I enjoy more, or whose music I enjoy more.
[/quote]

[Vincent Vega]

Many of us have been very harsh on Nihil - myself included, and probably most of all - and he has not deserved all of it. While I still believe his post to have been smacking of condescension and self-importance, he still didn't deserve everything he got. Here's why my temper was so short in this instance:
In a sampling of the 10 most recent threads he has started (less those in the Lame Board), 7 were directly related to the EF (another had implications, and another was about anarchy). If you've never been non-religious, you won't know the exact feeling that I'm about to describe, but if you have, then recall this scene: do you remember when you had that friend/family member/coworker/etc. who was just absolutely consumed by their religious belief? The one who would always insert Jesus/Muhammad/Vishnu/etc. into every conversation? Who would invite every person they met to their church? Now, being presently religious (presumably), you probably can relate to their zeal, if not to the manner in which they share it. That's what this comes off as. It gets old, not necessarily because of the content, but because of the repetition. The fact that he comes off as so myopic and obsessive about it is what starts to wear on nerves.
Usually, no one says boo about it (you don't have to believe me - look up his threads and see for yourself. Six of the seven have only positive replies, and the seventh featured criticism of clergy, which is not taken lightly.), but when he makes an attack on the intelligence of NO attendees, or at least makes a statement that is perceived that way and is not clarified other than merely repeated denials, you're darn right people are going to get worked up about it.
So were we right to be so hard on him? No, we weren't. We should have exercised more charity. But that is a two way street, and in my opinion, he should have had the humility to apologize for having offended so many non-EF enthusiasts.
So, even though I understand he won't be around for a while to reply, here is my public apology to Nihil for my lack of charity in this thread: I am sorry.

Edited May 15, 2011 by USAirwaysIHS

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1305335700' post='2241124']
I respectively disagree, as far as thinking that the EF will bring about better morality to populations...I know you said it wouldn't be the sole contributor, but the OF is just as legitimate, not that I am disregarding the EF, but the almost elitist attitude concerning the EF is annoying (personal opinion).
[/quote]

I know this a while back now, but I just wanted to clarify... I'm most definitely not of the opinion that one form is better than the other. My point is merely about reverence and beauty in the Mass. Most who are working for more availability of the EF are extremely dedicated to its cause [i]because[/i] of its beauty and reverence. The same is true for the OF- reverence, beauty, good liturgy, regardless of form, will be contributing factor to a person's moral life.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1305434370' post='2241750']
Many of us have been very harsh on Nihil - myself included, and probably most of all - and he has not deserved all of it. While I still believe his post to have been smacking of condescension and self-importance, he still didn't deserve everything he got. Here's why my temper was so short in this instance:
In a sampling of the 10 most recent threads he has started (less those in the Lame Board), 7 were directly related to the EF (another had implications, and another was about anarchy). If you've never been non-religious, you won't know the exact feeling that I'm about to describe, but if you have, then recall this scene: do you remember when you had that friend/family member/coworker/etc. who was just absolutely consumed by their religious belief? The one who would always insert Jesus/Muhammad/Vishnu/etc. into every conversation? Who would invite every person they met to their church? Now, being presently religious (presumably), you probably can relate to their zeal, if not to the manner in which they share it. That's what this comes off as. It gets old, not necessarily because of the content, but because of the repetition. The fact that he comes off as so myopic and obsessive about it is what starts to wear on nerves.
Usually, no one says boo about it (you don't have to believe me - look up his threads and see for yourself. Six of the seven have only positive replies, and the seventh featured criticism of clergy, which is not taken lightly.), but when he makes an attack on the intelligence of NO attendees, or at least makes a statement that is perceived that way and is not clarified other than merely repeated denials, you're darn right people are going to get worked up about it.
So were we right to be so hard on him? No, we weren't. We should have exercised more charity. But that is a two way street, and in my opinion, he should have had the humility to apologize for having offended so many non-EF enthusiasts.
So, even though I understand he won't be around for a while to reply, here is my public apology to Nihil for my lack of charity in this thread: I am sorry.
[/quote]

I understand your analogy, but at the same time Phatmass is a Catholic forum so it's not "intrusive" (is that the right word?) to post a lot about a particular aspect of Catholicism. Also, when one experiences that sort of religious confrontation, it's pretty "in your face" - on an online forum there's no pressure to read a thread that you'd rather avoid.

As an aside, I think it's important to recognize that his recent threads on traditionalism weren't created randomly. He posted about Holy Week and the Triduum during Holy Week and on Good Friday. And of course this thread was created because [i]Universae Ecclesiae[/i] was just released and it's good for Catholics to be up to speed on Church matters. Were he trying to cause arguments and all sorts of chaos, then I'd be concerned.

I didn't read his comment as an attack on the intelligence of NO attendees (which I noted in a previous post of mine). But I wasn't here posting during the thick of this thread when tempers were flaring.

[4588686]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1305436146' post='2241757']
I understand your analogy, but at the same time Phatmass is a Catholic forum so it's not "intrusive" (is that the right word?) to post a lot about a particular aspect of Catholicism. Also, when one experiences that sort of religious confrontation, it's pretty "in your face" - on an online forum there's no pressure to read a thread that you'd rather avoid.

As an aside, I think it's important to recognize that his recent threads on traditionalism weren't created randomly. He posted about Holy Week and the Triduum during Holy Week and on Good Friday. And of course this thread was created because [i]Universae Ecclesiae[/i] was just released and it's good for Catholics to be up to speed on Church matters. Were he trying to cause arguments and all sorts of chaos, then I'd be concerned.

I didn't read his comment as an attack on the intelligence of NO attendees (which I noted in a previous post of mine). But I wasn't here posting during the thick of this thread when tempers were flaring.
[/quote]


If I'm not mistaken most of his comments on it have been things he's written for his blog. I think that's a fair distinction, it's not like in real life where somebody is physically confronting you. But something about it can have a superior air to it. Almost as though he's pontificating. I don't think that's his intention. But following US's line, I can see how it could wear on people's nerves.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1305436696' post='2241758']
But something about it can have a superior air to it. Almost as though he's pontificating. I don't think that's his intention. [/quote]

I have always known Nihil to be incredibly level-headed. I've never even seen a post of his that I could describe as "angry". Therefore I'd always give him the benefit of the doubt.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1305436146' post='2241757']
I understand your analogy, but at the same time Phatmass is a Catholic forum so it's not "intrusive" (is that the right word?) to post a lot about a particular aspect of Catholicism. Also, when one experiences that sort of religious confrontation, it's pretty "in your face" - on an online forum there's no pressure to read a thread that you'd rather avoid.
[/quote]
Yes, of course. My comments in reference to his multitude of threads was in large part responding to a previous poster who called us "hate[ful] and bigot[ed]" towards "those who embrace. . .the Extraordinary form of the Mass". Clearly, as is shown by the laissez-faire attitude towards the majority of his posts, that is not the case. But certainly you could see where one would get a sense of myopia (which is not becoming on any person nor his viewpoints).
(I've said it before, but I'll say it again for the record: I am not anti-EF. There is no EF within a terribly close distance of me, and in the age of $4/gal. gasoline and with me being a university student, I can't afford to go right now; I would, however, like to try it at some point.)

Edited May 15, 2011 by USAirwaysIHS

[4588686]

[quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1305436870' post='2241759']
I have always known Nihil to be incredibly level-headed. I've never even seen a post of his that I could describe as "angry". Therefore I'd always give him the benefit of the doubt.
[/quote]


Yeah. I mean pontificating like as though he was teaching everybody. Not like angry.


I don't know. I wasn't involved in this fight. I'm not trying to cast blame or smear anybody. I was just trying to help figure out why things spun out so quickly.

[dUSt]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1305434370' post='2241750']
Many of us have been very harsh on Nihil - myself included, and probably most of all - and he has not deserved all of it. While I still believe his post to have been smacking of condescension and self-importance, he still didn't deserve everything he got. Here's why my temper was so short in this instance:
In a sampling of the 10 most recent threads he has started (less those in the Lame Board), 7 were directly related to the EF (another had implications, and another was about anarchy). If you've never been non-religious, you won't know the exact feeling that I'm about to describe, but if you have, then recall this scene: do you remember when you had that friend/family member/coworker/etc. who was just absolutely consumed by their religious belief? The one who would always insert Jesus/Muhammad/Vishnu/etc. into every conversation? Who would invite every person they met to their church? Now, being presently religious (presumably), you probably can relate to their zeal, if not to the manner in which they share it. That's what this comes off as. It gets old, not necessarily because of the content, but because of the repetition. The fact that he comes off as so myopic and obsessive about it is what starts to wear on nerves.
Usually, no one says boo about it (you don't have to believe me - look up his threads and see for yourself. Six of the seven have only positive replies, and the seventh featured criticism of clergy, which is not taken lightly.), but when he makes an attack on the intelligence of NO attendees, or at least makes a statement that is perceived that way and is not clarified other than merely repeated denials, you're darn right people are going to get worked up about it.
So were we right to be so hard on him? No, we weren't. We should have exercised more charity. But that is a two way street, and in my opinion, he should have had the humility to apologize for having offended so many non-EF enthusiasts.
So, even though I understand he won't be around for a while to reply, here is my public apology to Nihil for my lack of charity in this thread: I am sorry.
[/quote]
Excellent post.

If I can be frank, and put this out in the open, I believe the frustration a lot of phatmassers have, myself included, is that we seem to make many posts like this, admitting guilt. I don't recall ever seeing a reply to any of these apologetic posts that admit any type of counter guilt, or counter apology (ie- see HCF's replies to your apology). Reconciliation is a two-way street. It's just really frustrating. It takes a lot for me to swallow my pride and admit I'm wrong and apologize. I struggle with it immensely. So, when I do make sincere admissions of guilt, or attempt to apologize, it is discouraging when it is met with additional arguments or denials of any wrong doing. At some point, people just give up and take it as a loss. That's what has happened with me and a few individuals, and now, sadly, with Nihil. Just trying to be as honest as I can.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1305430130' post='2241670']
Help me out here, tell me which is more fitting:

-or-


I figured you left because us plebians were too low-brow to understand the clear superiority of the EF mass. But hey, what do you expect out of us less gifted, cornpone imbeciles?
[/quote]

I know I said I wouldn't post again but I'm forced to point out the mockery of your post, which proves my point, thank you. But I also thank you for apologizing to Nihil, the way you and others treated him in this thread as well as others like it are prime examples of how Traditional minded Catholics are unjustly treated on PM over all.


[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305439947' post='2241772']
Excellent post.

If I can be frank, and put this out in the open, I believe the frustration a lot of phatmassers have, myself included, is that we seem to make many posts like this, admitting guilt. I don't recall ever seeing a reply to any of these apologetic posts that admit any type of counter guilt, or counter apology (ie- see HCF's replies to your apology). Reconciliation is a two-way street. It's just really frustrating. It takes a lot for me to swallow my pride and admit I'm wrong and apologize. I struggle with it immensely. So, when I do make sincere admissions of guilt, or attempt to apologize, it is discouraging when it is met with additional arguments or denials of any wrong doing. At some point, people just give up and take it as a loss. That's what has happened with me and a few individuals, and now, sadly, with Nihil. Just trying to be as honest as I can.
[/quote]

I also feel it necessary to point out I see history different than you. I've seen many apologies from both sides and accepting of many apologies from both sides. Either way for any real injustice I've committed against the souls here I apologize yet again and except all apologies given to me or my friends. Also if one does apologize yet continues to make insulting statements or actions that apology doesn't mean much, or people say one thing but their actions are completely different and unfortunately I've seen a lot of that here as well. It does no good to apolgize to Traditional mind folk if the next day they will be the butt of jokes and insults like the apology either never happened or was just fake. In any event the last word belongs to you guys.

God Bless

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305439947' post='2241772']
Excellent post.

If I can be frank, and put this out in the open, I believe the frustration a lot of phatmassers have, myself included, is that we seem to make many posts like this, admitting guilt. I don't recall ever seeing a reply to any of these apologetic posts that admit any type of counter guilt, or counter apology (ie- see HCF's replies to your apology). Reconciliation is a two-way street. It's just really frustrating. It takes a lot for me to swallow my pride and admit I'm wrong and apologize. I struggle with it immensely. So, when I do make sincere admissions of guilt, or attempt to apologize, it is discouraging when it is met with additional arguments or denials of any wrong doing. At some point, people just give up and take it as a loss. That's what has happened with me and a few individuals, and now, sadly, with Nihil. Just trying to be as honest as I can.
[/quote]


For some, it is very difficult to admit they are wrong so, they will continue justifying their error to no end. Then, their next step is to embrace victimhood---a false type of martyrdom, elevating themselves for being persecuted for their point of view, when in actuality, it was rather not persecution for their opinion, but rather the frustration of others in reaction to their initial error. When dealing with these types, i too have found myself frustrated to the point of apologizing for my frustration. but i have found, rather than apologize to these types (cos, it may spark them to believe they were correct and guiltless, and this does their souls more harm than good,) i just pray for them, in the hopes that the grace of humility will 1-open their eyes to their error and wrongdoing and 2- move them to compunction and genuine confession and apology.

...some types take prayers and fasting, so lets do what we must to save souls...


...remember, our fight is not with certain individuals, but with the principalities of darkness that cloud minds and hearts...the very same demon that whispered prideful temptations to Eve is still around, and we must do what we can to fight him when he comes whispering amongst our friends...

[Lil Red]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1305461178' post='2241800']
For some, it is very difficult to admit they are wrong so, they will continue justifying their error to no end. Then, their next step is to embrace victimhood---a false type of martyrdom, elevating themselves for being persecuted for their point of view, when in actuality, it was rather not persecution for their opinion, but rather the frustration of others in reaction to their initial error. When dealing with these types, i too have found myself frustrated to the point of apologizing for my frustration. but i have found, rather than apologize to these types (cos, it may spark them to believe they were correct and guiltless, and this does their souls more harm than good,) i just pray for them, in the hopes that the grace of humility will 1-open their eyes to their error and wrongdoing and 2- move them to compunction and genuine confession and apology.

...some types take prayers and fasting, so lets do what we must to save souls...


...remember, our fight is not with certain individuals, but with the principalities of darkness that cloud minds and hearts...the very same demon that whispered prideful temptations to Eve is still around, and we must do what we can to fight him when he comes whispering amongst our friends...
[/quote]
i you.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305439947' post='2241772']
Excellent post.

If I can be frank, and put this out in the open, I believe the frustration a lot of phatmassers have, myself included, is that we seem to make many posts like this, admitting guilt. I don't recall ever seeing a reply to any of these apologetic posts that admit any type of counter guilt, or counter apology (ie- see HCF's replies to your apology). Reconciliation is a two-way street. It's just really frustrating. It takes a lot for me to swallow my pride and admit I'm wrong and apologize. I struggle with it immensely. So, when I do make sincere admissions of guilt, or attempt to apologize, it is discouraging when it is met with additional arguments or denials of any wrong doing. At some point, people just give up and take it as a loss. That's what has happened with me and a few individuals, and now, sadly, with Nihil. Just trying to be as honest as I can.
[/quote]

I thought his apology was nice.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1305461178' post='2241800']
For some, it is very difficult to admit they are wrong so, they will continue justifying their error to no end. Then, their next step is to embrace victimhood---a false type of martyrdom, elevating themselves for being persecuted for their point of view, when in actuality, it was rather not persecution for their opinion, but rather the frustration of others in reaction to their initial error. When dealing with these types, i too have found myself frustrated to the point of apologizing for my frustration. but i have found, rather than apologize to these types (cos, it may spark them to believe they were correct and guiltless, and this does their souls more harm than good,) i just pray for them, in the hopes that the grace of humility will 1-open their eyes to their error and wrongdoing and 2- move them to compunction and genuine confession and apology.

...some types take prayers and fasting, so lets do what we must to save souls...


...remember, our fight is not with certain individuals, but with the principalities of darkness that cloud minds and hearts...the very same demon that whispered prideful temptations to Eve is still around, and we must do what we can to fight him when he comes whispering amongst our friends...
[/quote]

Oh DS there you go again, unjustly judging the heart of your fellow man. Countless times in the past you've accused me as well as others of being prideful and pharisees but always hid it behind a fake niceness. Just as you have here. But with a new twist, apparently I and others are not allowed to point out the abuse against us or we will be abused, because I get the idea in your eyes we are influenced by demons and prideful like Satan himself.

Whatever I'm done for real this time, but thanks for proving me correct though, I know you can't see that the cause though. Traditional minded Catholics are indeed abused here, there seen as a bunch of prideful pharisees possibly possessed by demons.

God Bless DS. I pray God change your heart.