All-male Priesthood

[Winchester]

The Church has said she has no authority to ordain women. End of story. Roma Locuta Est, Shutta Uppa Est.

[HopefulBride]

OK I have given up on this thread...

[Papist]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1305053784' post='2239719']
Because women can be intelligent, compasionate, loving, trustworthy, honest, selfless, honerable... The list goes on, I'm not sure which attribute is important to the priesthood that a woman is by design, lacking in.
[/quote]
Very true. But there is something a woman can never be...a man. So, the question you need to ask is why did God become a man, and not a woman.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Papist

[Papist]

[url="http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/09_priestesses.htm"]http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/09_priestesses.htm[/url]

[stevil]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1305123160' post='2240043']
I think another thing to keep in mind is that there are more then just physical differences between men and women. Men and women are also psychologically very different. There is no reason why there can't be different roles.
[/quote]
I agree that there are psychological differences. I have no problems that women tend to choose to be nurses or hairdressers more so than men and that men choose to be in IT more so than women. Does this mean we as a society should make a rule and stop men from becoming nurses or hairdressers and a rule to stop women from being in IT? Definitely not. Let them make their own life choices (what's the point of free will if humanity close down the options?)

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305129956' post='2240095']
if you don't believe in God, then your sticker should not say agnostic.

your mind is so set in the liberal philosophy that unless women get to do everything that men get to do

Jesus put in place only men as his apostles. none of the apostles appointed women.

since your all about equality, are you going to start a new thread talking about how the church is unfair to men since the church does not allow MEN to be nun's?[/quote]
I'm a weak Atheist, I don't believe in god and I don't believe that there are no gods. I simply have no belief on the matter. I'm also Agnostic because I recognise there there is no knowledge for or against god's existence.

I wouldn't call my stance liberal, simply equal opportunity based.

It was only a very small sample of society with regards to Jesus' Apostles. It may have been by mere chance or it may have had a reason based on that time. It seems we can only guess.

Funny, I was tinking about mens role in the nunhood, I don't see why not. I mentioned preisthood and pope because that seemed to be positions of authority in the church, but your right unless a vagina is necessary to perform nunly duties then why not a male nun?
BTW I didn't start this thread.

[quote name='Archaeology cat' timestamp='1305131102' post='2240105']
I'd argue that the priesthood is also related to those biological facts, and is not solely about the tasks a priest performs.
[/quote]
I'm very interested to know how the physical differences manifest themselves into the tasks a priest performs. Can you elaborate?

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305132930' post='2240116']
We as a society have decided that women and men are supposed to be given the oppertunity to preform jobs that our gender, as a whole, is not as suited, based on our individual suitability, that is fine. But it does not change the fact that on average women are less suited for combat than men, or that women have better fine motor skills than men.

Free will allows one to do things that are wrong as well as right, many constraints are their to prevent people choosing to do wrong.

Yes it is an issue of biology. Jesus Christ had a penis, we know this becuase he was taken to the temple at 8 days old and had his foreskin removed.
TO be in Persona Christi one must have the same equipment at Christ.

You object because you see preisthood as a job, like being a teacher, but it is not, becoming a priest is a sacramental event, not an occupational selection.
[/quote]
Yes, I agree there are differences in men and women. But again I think, give the people the opportunity, let them decide.

I'm not a Christian so I probably wrong in saying that God gave people freewill for a reason. If people place barriers to people's free will then this might be contrary to god's plan,

Is there some task or duty that requires the penis? Does this mean that if a priest for some reason lacks a penis (Maybe cancer or some horrific accident) then he is incapable of being a preist?
[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305133137' post='2240117']
The Church has said she has no authority to ordain women. End of story. Roma Locuta Est, Shutta Uppa Est.
[/quote]
I can't argue against this one and I feel basically this is all it comes down to. Catholics have a belief that god does not want women ordained. As a non Catholic, non Christian, Atheist I will never agree and as a Catholic you will never agree with my side of the argument. But at least I now know where you guys are comming from. Progressing with this argument is somewhat futile.

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1305134082' post='2240122']
Very true. But there is something a woman can never be...a man. So, the question you need to ask is why did God become a man, and not a woman.
[/quote]
It had to be one or the other, 50-50 chance. Did god say that there was a reason?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1305139751' post='2240151']
It had to be one or the other, 50-50 chance. Did god say that there was a reason?
[/quote]
I think it would be more unreasonable to say that God did something- anything, really, without a reason. If you were an omniscient, omnipotent Being, would you leave the gender of your offspring to chance, and not really care either way? I don't think that really makes sense from that perspective.

[Selah]

It's not as if Catholicism is the only religion that gives roles for men and women. Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism) is based around a person "doing their dharma" i.e., doing what they were born to do based on their caste.

I think the idea of doing what you were meant to do, as opposed to what you want to do, is a lot healthier. Just look at all the people who audition for American Idol, hoping they can be a singer...and they end up just stinking. They are so sure that they should sing. But they don't have that gift and it's not what they were born to do.

I like the idea of roles. Doing what God made us to do so we can glorify Him and help ourselves and each other, in my opinion, is more important than what we think we should have or want.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Selah

[CatherineM]

If I used smilies, I would be tempted to use the one banging its head against the wall.

[Selah]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1305143459' post='2240167']
If I used smilies, I would be tempted to use the one banging its head against the wall.
[/quote]

It's Mikolbe's fault.

As always.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1305139751' post='2240151']Progressing with this argument is somewhat futile.

[/quote]
One of the members around here used to have a quote: Never attack. Never defend. Always clarify.

It is unlikely that you'll ever agree with our point of view on the matter without coming to believe Catholicism as the truth; however, the discussion can still be fruitful if you can come to understand our rationale, even without accepting it.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1305139751' post='2240151']
I agree that there are psychological differences. I have no problems that women tend to choose to be nurses or hairdressers more so than men and that men choose to be in IT more so than women. Does this mean we as a society should make a rule and stop men from becoming nurses or hairdressers and a rule to stop women from being in IT? Definitely not. Let them make their own life choices (what's the point of free will if humanity close down the options?)

I wouldn't call my stance liberal, simply equal opportunity based.

It was only a very small sample of society with regards to Jesus' Apostles. It may have been by mere chance or it may have had a reason based on that time. It seems we can only guess.

Funny, I was tinking about mens role in the nunhood, I don't see why not. I mentioned preisthood and pope because that seemed to be positions of authority in the church, but your right unless a vagina is necessary to perform nunly duties then why not a male nun?

I'm very interested to know how the physical differences manifest themselves into the tasks a priest performs. Can you elaborate?

Yes, I agree there are differences in men and women. But again I think, give the people the opportunity, let them decide.

I'm not a Christian so I probably wrong in saying that God gave people freewill for a reason. If people place barriers to people's free will then this might be contrary to god's plan,

Is there some task or duty that requires the penis? Does this mean that if a priest for some reason lacks a penis (Maybe cancer or some horrific accident) then he is incapable of being a preist?

I can't argue against this one and I feel basically this is all it comes down to. Catholics have a belief that god does not want women ordained. As a non Catholic, non Christian, Atheist I will never agree and as a Catholic you will never agree with my side of the argument. But at least I now know where you guys are comming from. Progressing with this argument is somewhat futile.

It had to be one or the other, 50-50 chance. Did god say that there was a reason?
[/quote]

God made males and females equal in His sight with different roles and responsibilities, and I think this is where the problem in your interpretation of our beliefs. My role is the advancement and growth , nurturing and care of the next generation and I am emotionally, physiologically and psychologically designed for that in mind. Men cannot duplicate this role. In the same way, I cannot be a man. Free will, free choices and opportunities do not change the role I was born to. I cannot be a priest and have no problem with that. A priest images Jesus Christ in his person, but cannot do what I can do: bring life into the world - different roles for each sex.

[HisChildForever]

In the Gospels, the female disciples held their ground better than the men:

Pilate's wife begged him to let Jesus be (Matthew 27:19).
Women were brave enough to call out to Jesus as He struggled under the weight of the cross (Luke 23:27).
Veronica boldly stepped forward to wipe Christ's brow as he struggled under the weight of the cross.
Women were at the foot of the cross (Matthew 27:56; Mark 15:40; John 19:25).
Women were at the tomb, and visited the tomb first (Matthew 27:61, 28:1; Mark 15:47, 16:1; John 20:1).
The angel spoke to women (Matthew 27:5; John 20:11-13).
Christ appeared to a woman first (Mark 16:9; John 20:14-18).

Whereas Judas betrayed Christ, the Apostles fled from the Garden and abandoned Christ, Peter denied Christ three times, Simon unwillingly helped Christ carry the cross, and the Apostles didn't believe Mary Magdalene when she told them that she saw the resurrected Christ.

Clearly, women aren't push-overs.

In the Gospels, when Christ institutes the Sacraments, He gives His Apostles (all men) the power.

The Holy Father is called "The Servant of the Servants of God". There's a reason why Peter denied Christ three times and then professed his faith in Christ three times - not only to strengthen his faith and his resolve but to learn humility. Men have a harder time with humility than women do (see Matthew 26:6-10).

Christ has really done men a favor by picking them and them alone as His priests. Men are forced to face humility as the leaders, even though that might sound like a contradiction. Men lead by putting women and children before themselves.

[Socrates]

The reasons for an all-male priesthood are theological and supernatural, and as such will likely not be understood or accepted by an atheist until he first accepts the truth of God.

The primary duties of a priest are the supernatural duties of the sacraments, bestowed on him sacramentallly by God Himself. The priesthood isn't some kind of secular human services job (plenty of which are available in the secular world at much better pay).
It would seem that an atheist, who does not believe in God, much less the supernatural reality of the Sacraments, the Catholic priesthood and the Sacraments would be regarded as nothing more than ignorant superstitious nonsense.

Stevil (is that supposed to rhyme with "evil"?), honestly, as an atheist, why should it matter to you whether the Catholic priesthood is open to women or not?
If the priesthood and Sacraments are just meaningless ignorant superstitious mumbo-jumbo (as would be the case if God did not in fact exist), why should it matter to you whether or not women can join in that particular role of ignorant superstition? Personally, I don't spend much time worrying about whether the High Priestess of Isis (or fill-in-the-blank nonsensical neo-pagan role) is an equal opportunity position.

People who don't like the Catholic Church's teachings on the priesthood are free to leave the Church. There are plenty of protestant sects out there which allow female clergy.

Really, as an atheist, why should it matter?

Edited May 11, 2011 by Socrates

[MithLuin]

Like, [b]US Airways[/b]!

The idea of a discussion on a messageboard is for us to share our perspective with you, and for you to share your perspective with us. We may not see eye to eye, but we [i]can[/i] gain an understanding of where the other person is coming from.

If would be like....being pro-life, and yet never listening to a woman talk about why she was scared when she found out she was pregnant. Even if you are very strongly convinced that an abortion is always wrong, you can learn to understand why people choose to get abortions if you [i]listen[/i]. If you don't do that...you'll never see what's happening.



For instance, when we talk about how Jesus chose the apostles, a few things become clear. One - they were not his childhood friends or other men from Nazareth. They were (mostly) fishermen from Gallilee, though Matthew was a tax collector and Simon was a zealot. It is thought that Phillip may have been a Greek convert to Judaism, but that's speculation. So, how did the apostles end up being apostles? According to Luke 6, Jesus spent a night in prayer, and afterwards chose 12 from among his disciples whom he named as apostles. But it was not only men who were among Jesus' followers. There were some women who were in the group that travelled with him, and they are mentioned by name.

[quote]Soon afterwards, [Jesus] began going around from one city and village to another, proclaiming and preaching the kingdom of God. The twelve were with Him, and also some women who had been healed of evil spirits and sicknesses: Mary who was called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, and Joanna the wife of Chuza, Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others who were contributing to their support out of their private means.

Luke 8: 1-3[/quote]

So, of a group of men and women followers, Jesus chose 12 men to be the apostles. Some of the women were clearly financing his ministry, so he overlooked them at his own peril . He also decided to celebrate the Last Supper with his apostles, and that was who he told to 'Do this in remembrance of me', instituting the Eucharist. So....yeah. Jesus said that priests should be men, so they are. Doesn't mean a woman can't tell off a pope if he's doing the wrong thing - see St. Catherine of Sienna.



Interesting that you should ask about what would happen in the case of a male who no longer had his genitalia intact. That question was actually raised in the early Church:

[quote]If any one in sickness has been subjected by physicians to a surgical operation, or if he has been castrated by barbarians, let him remain among the clergy; but, if any one in sound health has castrated himself, it behoves that such an one, if [already] enrolled among the clergy, should cease [from his ministry], and that from henceforth no such person should be promoted. But, as it is evident that this is said of those who wilfully do the thing and presume to castrate themselves, so if any have been made eunuchs by barbarians, or by their masters, and should otherwise be found worthy, such men the Canon admits to the clergy.

[url=http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/NICAEA1.HTM]First Council of Nicea, 325 AD[/url] [/quote]

So, in other words, if you were castrated for a reason or against your will it's okay, but if you castrated yourself, then no, you cannot be a priest. Since then, I think it has also been clarified that an impotent man cannot be ordained a priest, but all I've found in a cursory online search was an off-hand remark by a bishop from Ghana saying as much.

[stevil]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1305143732' post='2240170']
It is unlikely that you'll ever agree with our point of view on the matter without coming to believe Catholicism as the truth; however, the discussion can still be fruitful if you can come to understand our rationale, even without accepting it.
[/quote]
Yes, I have a much better understanding now. If I totally understood then I would be a believer, so I can't claim to totally understand. But thank you to everyone who has invested time to educating me on this matter.


[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1305150576' post='2240225']
Stevil (is that supposed to rhyme with "evil"?),

honestly, as an atheist, why should it matter to you whether the Catholic priesthood is open to women or not?
[/quote]
The nickname Stevil was given to me by students at University. I don't know why, maybe it is a play on the word evil because I like Heavy Metal music and there is a perception that this kind of music is evil???
Anyway, it was a much better nickname than my previous one. So I have been using it as my online identity ever since.

It does irk me when I see something that goes against my personal values. I had a choice, either continue to be irked and hold onto a perception that Catholics preach gender discrimination, or discuss the topic with some reasonable Catholics.
I feel i have been educated well here. Thanks to all.