All-male Priesthood

[stevil]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305046311' post='2239670']
I can make this whole women preist thing very simple... Christ did not make any women Apostles, the Apostles did not choos to make any women to successor Apostles, nordid they make women Priest.
...
Christ did not give them the Role of Priest or Bishop. He simply didn't and niether did the Apostles, Since theSacrament of Holy Orders was instituted by them, nor was it ever done in the history of the Church. Scripture and Tadition both tell us that the Church soes not have the authority to ordain women.
[/quote]
This is consistent with what I have been told. It was interesting to find out the perceived importance of tradition within the church. Of course, as a non Catholic I disagree with it, I would imagine that one would have to become a Catholic first then be taught of such matters before one would either be happy to go along with it or think it is a non issue. The Apostles that Jesus appointed, were they his friends? The lads that hung out together, played together and philosophised together? Maybe Jesus found it easier to be himself around the lads or maybe the it was seen as socially strange for the girls to hang out with the boys?. I don't think that absence of something necessarily means that there is a rule or difinitive reason against it. But I know we aren't going to come to agreement on this matter.

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1305046507' post='2239673']
No I do not. I do not understand a lot of the things He does, and I think it would be presumptuous of me to feel like I should be able to.
[/quote]
Thanks for your honesty, this was a missing peice for me in understanding Catholic people and their beliefs. The "presumptuous" bit is merely an emotional social tool to detract people in their desire to know why. Fine that you directed it to yourself but it does imply that you would think it presumptious of anyone to feel that they should know why or even ask.
If Jesus were living on earth and someone asked the question of him, do you think that it would be more likely that he would give an honest answer rather than say "Don't be presumptious"

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305048427' post='2239686']
One could just as easily ask... Why would He?
[/quote]
Because women can be intelligent, compasionate, loving, trustworthy, honest, selfless, honerable... The list goes on, I'm not sure which attribute is important to the priesthood that a woman is by design, lacking in.

[quote name='vee8' timestamp='1305048866' post='2239688']
Since a priest acts in persona Christi, in the person of Christ, and since Jesus was a man I as a woman cannot ever fit or fill that role. God knows best.
[/quote]
God is all powerfull, you can't convince me that god cannot act as persona Christi through a female.

Edited May 10, 2011 by stevil

[Amppax]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1305053784' post='2239719']
This is consistent with what I have been told. It was interesting to find out the perceived importance of tradition within the church. Of course, as a non Catholic I disagree with it, I would imagine that one would have to become a Catholic first then be taught of such matters before one would either be happy to go along with it or think it is a non issue. The Apostles that Jesus appointed, were they his friends? The lads that hung out together, played together and philosophised together? Maybe Jesus found it easier to be himself around the lads or maybe the it was seen as socially strange for the girls to hang out with the boys?. I don't think that absence of something necessarily means that there is a rule or difinitive reason against it. But I know we aren't going to come to agreement on this matter.
[/quote]


In the Bible, one of the most shocking things that Jesus did was associate with women (Mary Magdalene, Martha and her sister Mary [not the same as Mary Magdalene]... the list could go on and on). Some of the people it was clear he cared about most and trusted to a great degree were women. Yet none of these women were apostles.

Side note:
in regards to the Apostles, Jesus and his apostles (i believe I could be wrong however) were not friends before he called them to come and follow him. Jesus was walking along the seashore in Galilee when he called Andrew, Peter, James, and John to stop merely being fishers, and instead become fishers of men.

[stevil]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1305054392' post='2239726']
In the Bible, one of the most shocking things that Jesus did was associate with women (Mary Magdalene, Martha and her sister Mary [not the same as Mary Magdalene]... the list could go on and on). Some of the people it was clear he cared about most and trusted to a great degree were women. Yet none of these women were apostles.

Side note:
in regards to the Apostles, Jesus and his apostles (i believe I could be wrong however) were not friends before he called them to come and follow him. Jesus was walking along the seashore in Galilee when he called Andrew, Peter, James, and John to stop merely being fishers, and instead become fishers of men.
[/quote]

OK, thanks for that, obviously I don't know the bible very well at all. I would still have to say that I don't know the reason why Jesus would not have appointed a female and although it looks fishy I am unconvinced that there is a reason. Whether that reason (if there was one) was due to society of that period, was period based or was an eternal rule. If I continue looking for a reason then it would only be a desperate reach.

Edited May 10, 2011 by stevil

[Amppax]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1305054986' post='2239731']
OK, thanks for that, obviously I don't know the bible very well at all. I would still have to say that I don't know the reason why Jesus would not have appointed a female and although it looks fishy I am unconvinced that there is a reason. Whether that reason (if there was one) was due to society of that period, was period based or was an eternal rule. If I continue looking for a reason then it would only be a desperate reach.
[/quote]

One of the things that as Catholic's we try to do is look at everything in its totality. As such, we teach that the Bible must be interpreted in the context of the entire Bible (Genesis through Revelations) and based on this type of total interpretation, i believe there is enough scriptural evidence to conclude that women priests are not permissible. But I wouldn't take my word for it, i'm neither a scripture scholar or a theology scholar (I'm a high school senior, not exactly the most knowledgeable ) I'm sure however that someone far smarter than I has written something on this that is much more enlightening then the simple arguments that I could provide for you. I'll try and see if I can find something more satisfying then this for you, but for now it is what I have. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/like.gif[/img]

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1305053784' post='2239719']

Because women can be intelligent, compasionate, loving, trustworthy, honest, selfless, honerable... The list goes on, I'm not sure which attribute is important to the priesthood that a woman is by design, lacking in.
[/quote]


So what? Why is it that that would mean God would want her to be a priest? None of those qualities are diminished by her not being under Holy Orders. Priest can be dumb, selfish, untrustworthy, lying, dishonorable, heretical, jerks and still be priest. Just like you can be a terrible spouse and still be married.

But the nicest, most kind, loving, decent, and trustworthy man can never be a mother, ever. No matter how much he wants to, he cannot, becuase it is simply notthe role of a man to be a mother, as such he is not capable of being one.

Why is it so shocking that Men might have a role within the Church unique to them?

[AudreyGrace]

It is not gender discrimination in the fact that we as Catholic women do not feel oppressed. If a woman leaves the Catholic church to become a pastor with another faith, then she probably didn't have a good foothold in the Catholic faith that would allow her to understand why women are not priests in the first place. Personally, I would never want to be a priest.

A major trait of the Church is that it is the established relationship between God and his people and it serves as a model for what our lives in unity with God will be like in the afterlife. For instance, the sacrament of Holy Matrimony symbolizes the relationship between God and his Church- the man representing Jesus and the woman representing the Church. In a similar way, nuns and religious sisters become so much a part of the Church that they have Jesus as their spouse, and men as priests become so much a part of Jesus' apostolic ministry that their spouse and purpose is to serve the Church. Men and women both have their meaningful contributions to the Church community. To switch up genders between these roles would go against the order that Christ established on earth, and somewhat be a form of adultery. As was said in a previous post, Jesus was a reformer. He had women friends and was a revolutionary in the aspect that he treated women and children with the same respect and love that he did men. Seeing as he had a liberal view of women at the time, it shows that there was a deeper purpose behind only appointing men as his distinct apostles. We choose to follow his strategy.

At least, that's what I've always thought on the issue.

[HopefulBride]

I try to stay out of these debates/discussions because I tend to get too passionate and might risk hurting feelings but I couldn't help myself. Here goes:

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1305053784' post='2239719']
Because women can be intelligent, compasionate, loving, trustworthy, honest, selfless, honerable... The list goes on, I'm not sure which attribute is important to the priesthood that a woman is by design, lacking in.
[/quote]

True but as the church is a bride, the church needs a [b]bridegroom[/b] which Christ represented and in his absence, the priests, bishops and the pope fill that role. [b]Women cannot[/b]

[quote]

God is all powerfull, you can't convince me that god cannot act as persona Christi through a female.
[/quote]

See my response above.

I am a female and I have no desire nor have I ever had one to become a priest. Perhaps I take it for granted that I understand the spousal relationship between the priest and the Church. This is something that was taught to me in catechism class. However, what would help yourself and other non-catholics is to not try to "equate" men and women and their abilities but rather to see the distinct and and unique role each has in glorifying God and in serving the church. Just like men cannot bear children (it is a natural fact) women cannot be grooms and as the church itself is a bride and needs a groom, her leader, her spouse cannot be a woman.

I hope my answer wasn't too passionate

Edited May 10, 2011 by HopefulBride

[HopefulBride]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305055614' post='2239736']

But the nicest, most kind, loving, decent, and trustworthy man can never be a mother, ever. No matter how much he wants to, he cannot, becuase it is simply notthe role of a man to be a mother, as such he is not capable of being one.

[/quote]

This

[Ice_nine]

Another point: Just because women cannot have institutional authority within the church doesn't mean they cannot have authority. There are many great female saints and religious women that all hold varying degrees of "clout" or influence over Christians. I used to be part of a forum that had a bunch of fundamentalist *insert expletive here* and there was this one guy who apparently was an "expert" on the Bible and said that it was ungodly and/or impossible for a women to teach a man in any capacity. So if I had been well-versed in Greek and Hebrew and had a BA in early Church history he would not accept my teaching authority over him. He had no solid theology to back up his reasoning, but if you want to see religion used as an excuse fr sexism, take a look at the ultra-fundies .

The Catholic Church just tells us women that we cannot be priests because of an ontological conflict that would arise. But it doesn't tell us that we can't be holy, smart, compassionate, heroic, or any of those other attributes you listed. As a woman, I'm ok with this. People may want to look upon religious women as poor, unenlightened folk who can only be happy because they are ignorant of how fulfilling is life on the outside. To me I get this understanding but I do find it ironic. Compared to the modern culture I feel the church is much more liberating to women than all the faux-freedom modern society offers to us.

[HopefulBride]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1305057704' post='2239762']
Another point: Just because women cannot have institutional authority within the church doesn't mean they cannot have authority. There are many great female saints and religious women that all hold varying degrees of "clout" or influence over Christians. I used to be part of a forum that had a bunch of fundamentalist *insert expletive here* and there was this one guy who apparently was an "expert" on the Bible and said that it was ungodly and/or impossible for a women to teach a man in any capacity. So if I had been well-versed in Greek and Hebrew and had a BA in early Church history he would not accept my teaching authority over him. He had no solid theology to back up his reasoning, but if you want to see religion used as an excuse fr sexism, take a look at the ultra-fundies .

The Catholic Church just tells us women that we cannot be priests because of an ontological conflict that would arise. But it doesn't tell us that we can't be holy, smart, compassionate, heroic, or any of those other attributes you listed. As a woman, I'm ok with this. People may want to look upon religious women as poor, unenlightened folk who can only be happy because they are ignorant of how fulfilling is life on the outside. To me I get this understanding but I do find it ironic. Compared to the modern culture I feel the church is much more liberating to women than all the faux-freedom modern society offers to us.
[/quote]

Definitely this.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1305055409' post='2239734']
One of the things that as Catholic's we try to do is look at everything in its totality. As such, we teach that the Bible must be interpreted in the context of the entire Bible (Genesis through Revelations) and based on this type of total interpretation, i believe there is enough scriptural evidence to conclude that women priests are not permissible. But I wouldn't take my word for it, i'm neither a scripture scholar or a theology scholar (I'm a high school senior, not exactly the most knowledgeable ) I'm sure however that someone far smarter than I has written something on this that is much more enlightening then the simple arguments that I could provide for you. I'll try and see if I can find something more satisfying then this for you, but for now it is what I have. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/like.gif[/img]
[/quote]

here is a link to a really good article about this

[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4750"]http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=4750[/url]

[CatherineM]

I may not have perceived authority in the church, but I'm often asked my opinion about things by priests. They don't do that because they find me unintelligent.

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1305059851' post='2239784']
I may not have perceived authority in the church, but I'm often asked my opinion about things by priests. They don't do that because they find me unintelligent.
[/quote]


Yes ...

[Selah]

I never really understood, why it was such a big deal for some people in the first place. Certain people, men and women, have roles. So, there ya go. It's not a slight, it's just, everyone has a role to fill, and some only a man can do and some only a woman can do.

Maybe I'm "old fashioned" ( ) but that's pretty much how I've always seen it.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Selah' timestamp='1305061819' post='2239794']
I never really understood, why it was such a big deal for some people in the first place. Certain people, men and women, have roles. So, there ya go. It's not a slight, it's just, everyone has a role to fill, and some only a man can do and some only a woman can do.

Maybe I'm "old fashioned" ( ) but that's pretty much how I've always seen it.
[/quote]
Exactly. If God had wanted me to be a gymnast, he wouldn't have made me so tall. If he had wanted me to be a ballerina, I wouldn't have size 13 feet. If he had wanted me to be a priest, I wouldn't have been born a woman.

I have no problem trying to follow what God wants for my life, although I'd love it if he would just plainly tell me what his will is.