The Law And Missionary Work

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1304997953' post='2239469']
And the spanish were ok with enslaving the indigenous peoples as well ...

I have a very hard time saying that they were unabashedly evil when we weren't there to judge that and are relying on what we have been told. Have you tried reading some of their writings? Or some of their historical documents.

I'm saying that to point blank say that they were evil is really judgemental. I completely disagree. There are always two sides of the story.


.... and I run away ... and I run away before my temper flares
[/quote]

I a not going to get into that arguement onthis thread...thats a whole different issue. suffice it to say that the spanish were significantly less harsh than the aztecs.... they didn't cut out peoples hearts to feed the gods, they didn't anally rape noncompliant slaves to death, and they didn't eat people.

I have no problem being Judgemental about evil... we should be, one of the works of mercy, "admonish the sinner" requires it ... regardless the Aztec culture was evil and it deserved to be destroyed.

[MithLuin]

Sounds good. I just don't like St. Francis being used to support things he did not support. For some reason, he is more easily misunderstood than other saints.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1304991517' post='2239404']
I had the goal of pointing out that Goo was unwilling to risk his own life to save Chechen souls despite being perfectly happy to risk the lives of primitive peoples.
[/quote]


1. It's Groo
2. Epic Fail
3. straw men? since when does one have to be willing to perform a certain action to have an opinion on said action? that's nuts
4. never said i was not willing to risk my life...you said that. not sure what yer smoking there budski
5. never said anything about risking the lives of anybody.
6. the debate is about whether it is ok to disobey a manmade law to obey God's law. that's all. buncha whacks turned it into colonialism, raping of cultures, and deifying the bloodthirsty Aztecs....

gonna see if I can find some cold pizza...

[Nihil Obstat]

If the debate is simply about whether or not it is ok to disobey a manmade law in order to obey a divine law, then the answer is a thousand times yes. If a manmade 'law' contradicts divine law, it is illegitimate and can be disobeyed morally. It may in fact be a moral obligation to disobey.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1305002075' post='2239515']
If the debate is simply about whether or not it is ok to disobey a manmade law in order to obey a divine law, then the answer is a thousand times yes. If a manmade 'law' contradicts divine law, it is illegitimate and can be disobeyed morally. It may in fact be a moral obligation to disobey.
[/quote]

Its also about this specific situation however, whether it is right to go in and evangelize this tribe. Personally i think it is (in fact we probably have a moral imperative to) but i'm just not sure how to do it... and that is the problem, it must be done in a way that is not destructive.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1305002193' post='2239517']
Its also about this specific situation however, whether it is right to go in and evangelize this tribe. Personally i think it is (in fact we probably have a moral imperative to) but i'm just not sure how to do it... and that is the problem, it must be done in a way that is not destructive.
[/quote]
I certainly would argue that evangelization of all people is a moral imperative. However, we should definitely get creative when it comes to specific methods. The Church's evangelization is certainly not as bad as the modern zeitgeist wants to portray it, but I don't think any of us here would argue that it was perfect.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1305002340' post='2239520']
I certainly would argue that evangelization of all people is a moral imperative. However, we should definitely get creative when it comes to specific methods. The Church's evangelization is certainly not as bad as the modern zeitgeist wants to portray it, but I don't think any of us here would argue that it was perfect.
[/quote]

agreed[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/clap2.gif[/img]

[Don John of Austria]

Well then how would you do it?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305057087' post='2239752']
Well then how would you do it?
[/quote]
I dunno. It would have to depend on the specific culture, obviously. For me personally, I think that if I were to evangelize a non-Christian culture I'd have the most success doing so by living as one of them, as closely as possible. However, like you said earlier, this wouldn't work in some cultures, especially where there was prevalent evil acts.
At the same time, I'll say right away that there are going to be lots of different methods that might work better than mine in any given scenario. I have no particular insight into human nature; I just know some of my own strengths and weaknesses.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1305057275' post='2239754']
I dunno. It would have to depend on the specific culture, obviously. For me personally, I think that if I were to evangelize a non-Christian culture I'd have the most success doing so by living as one of them, as closely as possible. However, like you said earlier, this wouldn't work in some cultures, especially where there was prevalent evil acts.
At the same time, I'll say right away that there are going to be lots of different methods that might work better than mine in any given scenario. I have no particular insight into human nature; I just know some of my own strengths and weaknesses.
[/quote]

Fair enough.

[Groo the Wanderer]

delivering free pizza would be a good start....everyone loves free pizza

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1305058135' post='2239767']
delivering free pizza would be a good start....everyone loves free pizza
[/quote]
I would totally make pizza for the Amazon tribes. They'd be converted instantly with my Catholic Pizza.

[MithLuin]

[url=http://www.gazettetimes.com/news/opinion/article_9b4f7f7f-9f39-58fe-9e09-1e6128a1158a.html]Here[/url] is an argument about why the missionaries should be kept out - that they are being used as tools of the oil companies. The author of this piece may think the Waorani are better off not being Christians (which we would disagree with), but it is generally a good idea to look at who is financing a project and how that can 'taint' the effects. [url=http://www.waorani.com/massacre.html]Logging[/url] is also a serious issue in this area.

In the case of Rachel Saint, she befriended Dayume, a Waorani girl living among the Quechua, and after converting her, traveled with her back to her own people to live with them as missionaries. It was Dayume who did the preaching, and converted her own family to Christianity.

So, it's really hard to argue that she didn't have the right to go in and visit her own [i]sisters[/i] to tell them about Christ, though one can certainly look at the results afterwards and question if all this outside aid is healthy for everyone involved.

Edited May 10, 2011 by MithLuin

[MithLuin]

Oh, and here's how to count in their language:

[list]1.-Adoke
2.-Mea
3.-Mea go adoke
4.-Mea go mea
5.-Mea go mea go adoke
6.-Onope emepoke go adoke [/list]

And I thought French was convoluted! (I mean, at least it makes perfect sense...)

[MithLuin]

Oh, and here's a documentary (just under 30 min) from the 'leave the noble savages alone' perspective: [url]http://www.documentary-film.net/search/watch.php?&ref=44[/url]

I hardly agree with everything said in this video, but I do think it has a few points that would be difficult to ignore. One, the petroleum companies are there, trying their best to use the same land the Waodani are using. So, preventing these people from being exploited is not a non-issue. When large sums of money are involved, people have an extra incentive to do things that are...unkind. Ditto for the logging companies.

Also, as much as the narrator admires the independent spirit of these people, the negative side effects are glaringly obvious. Helping an injured person is apparently 'not done' there. If you can't help yourself...oh well. Also, the extreme violence and retaliation that the group is known for can be seen as a manifestation of this fierce independence. That's not to say there isn't a positive side to that - the ability to take care of yourself and survive on your own is not exactly something to scoff at. Very few people from our own society would have the first clue about how to stay alive if everything wasn't done for us. And the idea of no down time means very little idleness, which is good.

Like with most people, the strengths and weaknesses tend to be two sides of the same coin.




But back on topic. If there is a group beyond the Waodani who has not been contacted by Westerners yet, I would think that the Christians among the Waodani would be the appropriate missionaries to reach such a group. That would greatly reduce the risk of transmitting diseases (like polio or measles), and it would be more likely that such a missionary would understand the language and culture. [The Waodani language is not part of the Quechua language group, as far as I know.]

Sending some random American out into the jungles of Ecuador has...limited value. Though if God calls someone to that, that's another matter. I mean, my sister has been in Ecuador as a missionary, but not to places like that. She was visiting villages where the people were Catholic and spoke Spanish, bringing a priest with the sacraments, catechesis, vaccinations for the children, and some simple medical care. Her group was invited to come to these places.