The Law And Missionary Work

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1304985515' post='2239342']
Creepy pov.
[/quote]


Why?

I forget Christians are always supposed to take it. Our civilian leaders are never ever suppoed to protect us, and our Church protect us... that is absolutely terrible. I mean the muslims invading our lands, enslaving our brethern, and making war on the Faith for 400 years was perfectly fine, but launching Crusades, that is absolutly terrible and we should never ever do that.

Why becuase we are never supposed to defend ourselves or our fellow Christians, but line up, like cattle to the slaughter.


If anything our leaders should make war on Christians to protect Muslims who are invading lands that have been ours since before thier religion came into existance.


The Fact that Blessed Charlemagne is you know [i]BLESSED[/i] just like JPII, that isn't any reason we should concider his example to be, perhaps, meanful. Is it?

That Saint Louis lead multiple Crusades, Or that Saint Benard preached them, or that St. Francis went on them as a priest, not condemning but encouraging them, that is meaningless and not really to be concidered as example by which to live our life. I mean as Catholics we aren't supposed to look to the saints as examples by which to form our lives are we?


And those Church Councils which called for Crusades,,,, little importance Trent and Lateran IV right those didn't really matter did they?


On second thought....

[4588686]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1304987671' post='2239366']
Why?

I forget Christians are always supposed to take it. Our civilian leaders are never ever suppoed to protect us, and our Church protect us... that is absolutely terrible. I mean the muslims invading our lands, enslaving our brethern, and making war on the Faith for 400 years was perfectly fine, but launching Crusades, that is absolutly terrible and we should never ever do that.

Why becuase we are never supposed to defend ourselves or our fellow Christians, but line up, like cattle to the slaughter.


If anything our leaders should make war on Christians to protect Muslims who are invading lands that have been ours since before thier religion came into existance.


The Fact that Blessed Charlemagne is you know [i]BLESSED[/i] just like JPII, that isn't any reason we should concider his example to be, perhaps, meanful. Is it?

That Saint Louis lead multiple Crusades, Or that Saint Benard preached them, or that St. Francis went on them as a priest, not condemning but encouraging them, that is meaningless and not really to be concidered as example by which to live our life. I mean as Catholics we aren't supposed to look to the saints as examples by which to form our lives are we?


And those Church Councils which called for Crusades,,,, little importance Trent and Lateran IV right those didn't really matter did they?


On second thought....
[/quote]


Yeah. I don't know what Dudayev was thinking when he ordered the large, conventional Chechen army to invade Russia.

[Laudate_Dominum]

lol. not really interested in such a foolish debate. your sentiments about missionary activity being akin to a pretext for conquest is what I found particularly disturbing. I suspect that you and I have very different philosophies and religions.

p.s. I'm not a carolingian or a medieval. I don't inhabit their world. I don't understand their culture. I don't share their worldview. I don't pretend to live or believe in a manner in which they'd understand or approve. anyway, not that it matters...

edit: adjectival enhancement.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Laudate_Dominum

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1304988608' post='2239375']
Yeah. I don't know what Dudayev was thinking when he ordered the large, conventional Chechen army to invade Russia.
[/quote]


If they're killing missionaries, they're killing missionaries.

That said, being large and conventional doesn't really mean much, the albanians were niether large nor conventional, but we
bombed the croutons out of Serbia so that they could have Kosovo now didn't we.

THe fact that the Albanians were there illegally, and that they were launchng raids against Serbian government offices, raping Serbian women ( Yeah it went both ways, but only one side got reported) and all that, and that it was Serbia's land for merely 1000 years or so didn't seem to count for much did it.

We shouldn't start conflict with other faiths, but we should be allowed to preach to them, and if they kill us for it, then it is our leaders [i]DUTY[/i] to defend them.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1304988848' post='2239376']
lol. not really interested in such a foolish debate. your sentiments about missionary activity being akin to a pretext for conquest is what I found particularly disturbing. I suspect that you and I have very different philosophies and religions.

p.s. I'm not a carolingian or a medieval. I don't inhabit their world. I don't understand their culture. I don't share their worldview. I don't pretend to live or believe in a manner in which they'd understand or approve. anyway, not that it matters...

edit: adjectival enhancement.
[/quote]



Ah so we are to through out Trent and Lateran IV then. The Transubstatiation is based on a Medieval council and was defined only becuase of a Medieval world view, so were most of the other Dogmatic teachings of the Church.

Missionary activity is not a pretext for conquest, repeated martyrdom of missionaries is however [i]Casus belli[/i] and we should not be afraid to say it or do it.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1304989433' post='2239379']
Ah so we are to through out Trent and Lateran IV then. The Transubstatiation is based on a Medieval council and was defined only becuase of a Medieval world view, so were most of the other Dogmatic teachings of the Church.

Missionary activity is not a pretext for conquest, repeated martyrdom of missionaries is however [i]Casus belli[/i] and we should not be afraid to say it or do it.
[/quote]
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say. You seem to be all over the map, gratuitously fantasizing as I see it. I don't presume to inhabit and understand the moral universe of people who lived a thousand years ago on another continent (I won't even presume to understand Mexican Roman Catholics of the 1950's). You and I are not having a conversation as far as I'm concerned. I've clarified my "creepy" sentiment; that's really all I wanted to add to this thread. Have fun peeps.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1304987671' post='2239366']
Why?



On second thought....
[/quote]

turn the other cheek? thou shalt not kill?

[4588686]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1304989833' post='2239383']
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say. You seem to be all over the map, gratuitously fantasizing as I see it.
[/quote]
Seems about right.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304989881' post='2239386']
turn the other cheek? thou shalt not kill?
[/quote]


Turn the other cheek was an act of defiance against those whohwhere your social betters not an act of humility And as ffor you shall not kill? that is not a good translation of that verse, witness the entire Old Testement.

The better translation ( as opposed to transliteration) is " thou shall not murder".


If you would like a new testement scripture try Luke 14 15-23 or matthew 22.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1304989833' post='2239383']
I'm not even sure what you're trying to say. You seem to be all over the map, gratuitously fantasizing as I see it. I don't presume to inhabit and understand the moral universe of people who lived a thousand years ago on another continent (I won't even presume to understand Mexican Roman Catholics of the 1950's). You and I are not having a conversation as far as I'm concerned. I've clarified my "creepy" sentiment; that's really all I wanted to add to this thread. Have fun peeps.
[/quote]


I am neither fantasizing nor am I allover the place. Catholic Dogma is dependent in its development and philosophical foundation on the Medieval world View. One cannot be a Catholic and dismiss the Medieval councils; just as one cannot be a Catholic and dismiss the ancient councils, and we are farther from their world view by leaps and bounds.


The idea that there is a shifting morality is disturbing, and leds to many many problems.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1304989958' post='2239387']
Seems about right.
[/quote]



Oh please Hasan, You picked the Chechnians because they were divisive and might indeed kill the missionary, my only regrat is that I allowed you to accomplish your goal of getting us to argue among ourselves.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1304990947' post='2239395']
Oh please Hasan, You picked the Chechnians because they were divisive and might indeed kill the missionary, my only regrat is that I allowed you to accomplish your goal of getting us to argue among ourselves.
[/quote]

Well maybe because you seem to be advocating war... idk that is something that seems up for debate.

[4588686]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1304990947' post='2239395']
Oh please Hasan, You picked the Chechnians because they were divisive and might indeed kill the missionary, my only regrat is that I allowed you to accomplish your goal of getting us to argue among ourselves.
[/quote]



I didn't have any goal of getting Catholics to argue amongst themselves. I had the goal of pointing out that Goo was unwilling to risk his own life to save Chechen souls despite being perfectly happy to risk the lives of primitive peoples. Which I accomplished. You got Catholics to argue amongst themselves all on your own with your odd fantasies of forcibly converting people through brutal conquest. Entertain whatever grotesque fantasies you wish. I'm glad other Catholics find your advocation of offensive, conquering holy war as bizarre and distasteful as I do.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1304991517' post='2239404']
I didn't have any goal of getting Catholics to argue amongst themselves. I had the goal of pointing out that Goo was unwilling to risk his own life to save Chechen souls despite being perfectly happy to risk the lives of primitive peoples. Which I accomplished. You got Catholics to argue amongst themselves all on your own with your odd fantasies of forcibly converting people through brutal conquest. Entertain whatever grotesque fantasies you wish. I'm glad other Catholics find your advocation of offensive, conquering holy war as bizarre and distasteful as I do.
[/quote]


I have no such fantasies. I simply said such would be the most effective with regards to the Chechnians. I find it repugnent that Catholics find it so offensive, since there is really no way on can be a Catholic and condemn it. One could for instance say that in moder times war is so terrible that it is not worth such things.... but of course that is just a fantasy about how war was so much better then than now.

War is terrible, having your missionaries and your Christian brethern murdered, raped, and oppressed is also terrible. These are occuring now, not a thousand years ago, Islam is on the march now ( as it was a thousand years ago). Saying that fighting to protect them ( christians) would be good, is not terrible, it is true.
That said, I have no illusion that Catholics will fight to save thier Christian brothers and sisters half way around the world... They won't even fight to save babies right here at home.


Heck, manyof them won't even vote to save babies right here at home.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Don John of Austria

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304991484' post='2239403']
Well maybe because you seem to be advocating war... idk that is something that seems up for debate.
[/quote]



I think war to protect those "made glorious with the name of Christ" is a good and noble thing. I stand with the Tradition and Magesterium of the Church in that regard.