4588686 Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1304968181' post='2239212'] Is that somewhere near Abilene? [/quote] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 9, 2011 Author Share Posted May 9, 2011 [quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1304976007' post='2239250'] [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya[/url] [/quote] I think he was being sarcastic. Anyway I would be happy to bring Christ to the Chechnians though that has been tried for many many years. I think in their case a Carolingian approach to conversion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MithLuin Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 (edited) Not sarcastic, no. Just pointing out that the missionary should be willing to die himself, not willing to end the lives of the people he seeks to evangelize. I believe this question was answered somewhat definitively half a century ago. [url=http://endofthespear.com/]The End of the Spear[/url] is the movie version, but missionary Nate Saint (yep, his surname was saint....) and some of his friends attempted to contact the Waodani and...were killed for their efforts. Later, contact was made, and one group was converted, and eventually an end to the [i]extremely[/i] violent lifestyle of this group of people came about. They still live in remote villages in the Amazon, but they have contact with outsiders and some of them are Christians. Sounds like a good story to me! If you prefer documentaries, you want 'Beyond the Gates of Splendour' and if you prefer reading actual books, you want Elisabeth Elliot's [i]Through Gates of Splendour[/i] for this story. Or you can always just read the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Auca]wikipedia[/url] entry. Edited May 9, 2011 by MithLuin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 9, 2011 Author Share Posted May 9, 2011 [quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1304976937' post='2239256'] Not sarcastic, no. Just pointing out that the missionary should be willing to die himself, not willing to end the lives of the people he seeks to evangelize. I believe this question was answered somewhat definitively half a century ago. [url=http://endofthespear.com/]The End of the Spear[/url] is the movie version, but missionary Nate Saint (yep, his surname was saint....) and some of his friends attempted to contact the Waodani and...were killed for their efforts. Later, contact was made, and one group was converted, and eventually an end to the [i]extremely[/i] violent lifestyle of this group of people came about. They still live in remote villages in the Amazon, but they have contact with outsiders and some of them are Christians. Sounds like a good story to me! If you prefer documentaries, you want 'Beyond the Gates of Splendour' and if you prefer reading actual books, you want Elisabeth Elliot's [i]Through Gates of Splendour[/i] for this story. Or you can always just read the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Auca]wikipedia[/url] entry. [/quote] Groo was being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmaD2006 Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1304954802' post='2239079'] Oh our's is, but it is less evil than others in history. If you had only been critical of our current culture I would have no problem, but if you compare Spanish Culture of the conquest to say the Aztec's there is no comparison, the Spanish were the good guys and the Aztecs were the bad guys, and I know all about the bad things the Spanish did, but compared to the Aztecs the nastious conquistador was a Saint. THere are social and cultural ramifications to the Gospel, denying that is silly at best. If one is going to bring Christ to the ignorant then one must realize that some of their culture is probably going have to go. [/quote] Remember that for the most part what you read is the history as told by the conquerors ... so I suspect the entire truth about the culture is not apparent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmaD2006 Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1304963867' post='2239192'] And there's nothing in the teaching of Christ nor of His Church which demands that a missionary of Christ must completely renounce his own culture. That's leftist hooey. [/quote] Wow that's contrary to the thinking of a group of people in the US that believe that anyone who migrates to the US should leave their culture behind and assimilate to ours. Sorry off topic ... now back to the discussion at hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1304977178' post='2239260'] Groo was being sarcastic. [/quote] Dang! I have been exposed. Hasan - that aint my charism...there are plenty others who do have that calling though. I would be lousy at it given that I hate eating anything aminal-based that isn't cooked. Some cultures would be mightily offended twere I to turn down their foods... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 9, 2011 Author Share Posted May 9, 2011 [quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1304977761' post='2239265'] Remember that for the most part what you read is the history as told by the conquerors ... so I suspect the entire truth about the culture is not apparent. [/quote] Oh please.... who would you have tell the history , the losers, yeah thats going to be accurate. Unfortuantely Earth is not Krynn, we do not hav an immortal omnisent chronicler to record everything from an obective point of view. Yes and the spanish were very okay about saying exactly what happened, including many things we would call atrocities, but they thought they were right, so they didn't hold back. The skull racks, the butchered bones of the eaten and thier own art, as well as the histories of other groups tell the story quite well, if you perfer archeology to history. The Aztec culture was evil, they killed people, and ate them, they ritualized warfare so that they would have a steady supply of sacrifices, and for those sacrifices that had to be willing.... well they new how to make you an offer you couldn't refuse. They were unabashedly evil, why is that so hard for people to accept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1304978780' post='2239287'] The Aztec culture was evil, they killed people, and ate them, they ritualized warfare so that they would have a steady supply of sacrifices, and for those sacrifices that had to be willing.... well they new how to make you an offer you couldn't refuse. [/quote] In America we call that capitalism. Edited May 9, 2011 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 9, 2011 Author Share Posted May 9, 2011 [quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1304980852' post='2239308'] In America we call that capitalism. [/quote] That would be funny, except that I know what they did to those who were marked but wouldn't go willingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1304976681' post='2239255'] I think he was being sarcastic. [/QUOTE] I'm sure he was being sarcastic. [QUOTE]Anyway I would be happy to bring Christ to the Chechnians[/QUOTE] Ok. I doubt you'll find a direct flight there but I'm sure once you reach Volograd you can find a way. You'll want to carry extra money to bribe to Russian soldiers and Kadyrovites [url="http://www.tripadvisor.com/Flights-g494956-Chechnya_South_Russia-Cheap_Discount_Airfares.html"]http://www.tripadvisor.com/Flights-g494956-Chechnya_South_Russia-Cheap_Discount_Airfares.html[/url] [QUOTE]though that has been tried for many many years. [/QUOTE] Yeah. Who knows why it hasn't gotten very far. [QUOTE]I think in their case a Carolingian approach to conversion. [/quote] Cute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 [quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1304978482' post='2239279'] Dang! I have been exposed. Hasan - that aint my charism...there are plenty others who do have that calling though. I would be lousy at it given that I hate eating anything aminal-based that isn't cooked. Some cultures would be mightily offended twere I to turn down their foods... [/quote] Well, I'm sorry to hear that God has called you to advocate missionary work that might get some primitives killed but has yet to call you to missionary work that might get you killed. He works in mysterious ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 9, 2011 Author Share Posted May 9, 2011 (edited) Cute? Hasan, did you forget me? You should know that I have no problem with Blessed Charlemagne's methods if put in similar circumstances. and frankly I think the Chechnians are probably those circumstances. Missionaries should come in peace, but if they are repeatedly martyred, well, well Verdun solved that problem didn't it. Saxons or Chechnians makes no difference, kill missionaries repeatedly, you get what you get. Edited May 10, 2011 by Don John of Austria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted May 9, 2011 Share Posted May 9, 2011 [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1304985375' post='2239340'] Cute? Hasan, did you forget me? You should now that I have no problem with Blessed Charlemagne's methods if put in similar circumstances. and frankly I think the Chechnians are probably those circumstances. Missionaries should come in peace, but if they are repeatedly martyred, well, well Verdun solved that problem didn't it. Saxons or Chechnians makes no difference, kill missionaries repeatedly, you get what you get. [/quote] Creepy pov. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4588686 Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1304985375' post='2239340'] Cute? Hasan, did you forget me? You should know that I have no problem with Blessed Charlemagne's methods if put in similar circumstances. and frankly I think the Chechnians are probably those circumstances. Missionaries should come in peace, but if they are repeatedly martyred, well, well Verdun solved that problem didn't it. Saxons or Chechnians makes no difference, kill missionaries repeatedly, you get what you get. [/quote] Yeah. I understood exactly what you were refering too. If the non-sense you were advocating were in any way possible I'd find it appauling. But since it's wraped in impotent anachronism I find it more cute than obnoxious.[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1304985515' post='2239342'] Creepy pov. [/quote] Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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