The Law And Missionary Work

[Don John of Austria]

So after a kind of smart aleck post on a thrad about tribes in the amazon, I gotto thinking...


THere are several tribes which have been identified from the air, which have never been in contact with the outside world. THese tribes areprotected by the governmetns of ecuador and Brazil, it is illegal to make contact with them.

Now if these tribes are uncontacted, then they have never heard of Christ.

Would it be morally permissible to break the law to bring the Faith to these people?

Might it be morally obligatiory?

[BigJon16]

Why is there a law that makes it illegal to contact them?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='BigJon16' timestamp='1304950897' post='2239036']
Why is there a law that makes it illegal to contact them?
[/quote]



Well aside from the whole "noble savage " idea being reborn... .we don't like to call it that, and most of itsbelievers would get really upset about you calling it that, but that idea is very much alive.

Native society is good, our society is bad... blah blah blah.


Other than that there is a real concern that they would die from exposure germs they have no resistance to.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1304949823' post='2239031']

Would it be morally permissible to break the law to bring the Faith to these people?

Might it be morally obligatiory?
[/quote]


Absolutely. Man's law is subordinate to God's Law and as such must support it to be considered legitimate. Unjust laws do not have to be followed (CCC 1902-1903, 2242). Christ's command as He sent forth the Apostles was quite clear: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you" (Mt 28:19-20).

[Don John of Austria]

Well I don't disagree..

But ...
What if they then got sick and died?

Would this cause scandal?

Would this scandal drive people from the Church?


Does it matter?

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1304951869' post='2239043']
Well I don't disagree..

But ...
What if they then got sick and died?

Would this cause scandal?

Would this scandal drive people from the Church?


Does it matter?
[/quote]


Think eternally, not temporally. Is it better to lose one's soul or one's life? We have a command to evangelize the world....all of it. Playing 'what if' on the illness thing is hooey, IMHO. This is the 21st century...we could vaccinate the various tribes and treat them when necessary.

Scandal? There is always scandal in the Church. Jesus scandalized many by conversing and eating with prostitutes, tax collectors, and egad...women! He scandalized thousands by commanding them to eat his flesh and drink his blood, and yes, many left (John 6). The Church aint about growing numbers, but in bringing the Gospel to the world. Wether its 1.2 billion or 12 people, the Church is still THE church. Those who wish to follow, will; those who do not shall not be forced to do so.

The real scandal is that the governments in two supposedly Catholic countries are bowing to a bunch of PC nonsense and ignoring Christ's commands.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1304952412' post='2239054']
Think eternally, not temporally. Is it better to lose one's soul or one's life? We have a command to evangelize the world....all of it. Playing 'what if' on the illness thing is hooey, IMHO. This is the 21st century...we could vaccinate the various tribes and treat them when necessary.

Scandal? There is always scandal in the Church. Jesus scandalized many by conversing and eating with prostitutes, tax collectors, and egad...women! He scandalized thousands by commanding them to eat his flesh and drink his blood, and yes, many left (John 6). The Church aint about growing numbers, but in bringing the Gospel to the world. Wether its 1.2 billion or 12 people, the Church is still THE church. Those who wish to follow, will; those who do not shall not be forced to do so.

The real scandal is that the governments in two supposedly Catholic countries are bowing to a bunch of PC nonsense and ignoring Christ's commands.
[/quote]



I like you... (I figured I would when I saw Groo.) maybe you and I can be friends.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1304952412' post='2239054']This is the 21st century...we could vaccinate the various tribes and treat them when necessary.
[/quote]
And so it begins. First we go there with the intention of proclaiming the name of Christ. But, of course, it never stops there. After the proclamation of the Gospel comes vaccines. And it won't stop there. Then comes "charity workers" and hospitals. Then we will claim an obligation to "educate" them, so in comes school teachers and schools. Then we will claim the need to connect them with the rest of the "global village," so in comes computers. Meanwhile, we destroy their subsistence culture as we did throughout the rest of Latin America, and replace it with our institutionalized society where there are no problems an institution can't fix.

A missionary should not go into these areas unless he is ready to become one of them (which means renouncing his own culture). A missionary can't proclaim anything unless he first knows how to be silent and listen. If you are there to proclaim the name of Christ, then don't proclaim anything other than Christ. If you are there to be a colonizer and to impose your cultural ideology on others, then at least leave the pure name of Christ out of your bloody enterprise.

Never trust a man with good intentions. Never trust your own good intentions. Before you go around trying to vaccinate people who don't live in the 21st century, remember that there's only one savior of the world. And it ain't you.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Era Might

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1304953900' post='2239071']
And so it begins. First we go there with the intention of proclaiming the name of Christ. But, of course, it never stops there. After the proclamation of the Gospel comes vaccines. And it won't stop there. Then comes "charity workers" and hospitals. Then we will claim an obligation to "educate" them, so in comes school teachers and schools. Then we will claim the need to connect them with the rest of the "global village," so in comes computers. Meanwhile, we destroy their subsistence culture as we did throughout the rest of Latin America, and replace it with our institutionalized society where there are no problems an institution can't fix.

A missionary should not go into these areas unless he is ready to become one of them (which means renouncing his own culture). A missionary can't proclaim anything unless he first knows how to be silent and listen. If you are there to proclaim the name of Christ, then don't proclaim anything other than Christ. If you are there to be a colonizer and to impose your cultural ideology on others, then at least leave the pure name of Christ out of your bloody enterprise.

Never trust a man with good intentions. Never trust your own good intentions. Before you go around trying to vaccinate people who don't live in the 21st century, remember that there's only one savior of the world. And it ain't you.
[/quote]


And what if their culture is evil?

[Era Might]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1304954128' post='2239073']
And what if their culture is evil?
[/quote]
What if our culture is evil?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1304954190' post='2239076']
What if our culture is evil?
[/quote]



Oh our's is, but it is less evil than others in history.


If you had only been critical of our current culture I would have no problem, but if you compare Spanish Culture of the conquest to say the Aztec's there is no comparison, the Spanish were the good guys and the Aztecs were the bad guys, and I know all about the bad things the Spanish did, but compared to the Aztecs the nastious conquistador was a Saint.

THere are social and cultural ramifications to the Gospel, denying that is silly at best. If one is going to bring Christ to the ignorant then one must realize that some of their culture is probably going have to go.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1304954802' post='2239079']
Oh our's is, but it is less evil than others in history.


If you had only been critical of our current culture I would have no problem, but if you compare Spanish Culture of the conquest to say the Aztec's there is no comparison, the Spanish were the good guys and the Aztecs were the bad guys, and I know all about the bad things the Spanish did, but compared to the Aztecs the nastious conquistador was a Saint.

THere are social and cultural ramifications to the Gospel, denying that is silly at best. If one is going to bring Christ to the ignorant then one must realize that some of their culture is probably going have to go.
[/quote]
That's the ideology of colonization. I just don't accept it.

I have no problem calling a culture evil (although that's a pretty broad charge, and I wouldn't apply it simplistically to any culture...all cultures have good and evil, although in times of decadence and decline, of course, evil will be intensified).

I agree there are social and cultural ramifications of the Gospel. Colonization is not one of them.

I have no patience for do-goodism. I don't care if it's Spaniard or American do-gooders. I don't trust anyone who goes around the world looking for people to inflict their good intentions on.

The mission of the Gospel is about the slow silence of seeds growing in good soil. Colonization is about rape.

Christ never told us to conquer evil societies in his name. He said that if someone doesn't accept his missionaries, then those missionaries should shake the dust from their feet and move on. Even if Aztec culture in the 16th century was evil (and, again, that's a broad charge I wouldn't make simplistically against any culture, not even my own), conquering nations has nothing to do with the Gospel. It is about colonization. And colonization in the name of Christ is blasphemy.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Era Might

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1304955533' post='2239086']
That's the ideology of colonization. I just don't accept it.

I have no problem calling a culture evil (although that's a pretty broad charge, and I wouldn't apply it simplistically to any culture...all cultures have good and evil, although in times of decadence and decline, of course, evil will be intensified).

I agree there are social and cultural ramifications of the Gospel. Colonization is not one of them.

I have no patience for do-goodism. I don't care if it's Spaniard or American do-gooders. I don't trust anyone who goes around the world looking for people to inflict their good intentions on.

The mission of the Gospel is about the slow silence of seeds growing in good soil. Colonization is about rape.

Christ never told us to conquer evil societies in his name. He said that if someone doesn't accept his missionaries, then those missionaries should shake the dust from their feet and move on. Even if Aztec culture in the 16th century was evil (and, again, that's a broad charge I wouldn't make simplistically against any culture, not even my own), conquering nations has nothing to do with the Gospel. It is about colonization. If a nation wants to colonize, go ahead (and count me as your enemy). But don't colonize in the name of Christ, because that is blasphemous.
[/quote]


In order

1. You'll have to make more of an arguemtn than that... I reject that it is idealogical at all, mearly reasonable.

2. You say you have a no problem calling a culture evil, yet you clearly do, you qualify it even in that sentence.

3. Well it might, infact it might require full scale obliterationof thier society.

4. well thats a choice but not an arguement.

5. Yeah okay, I hear this a lot from people of latin american decent, I particully hear it from mexicans who glory in the myth of the Aztecs. Yet none of them would like to go back to living in aztec society. Most of Mexico was subject to a constant fear of being sacrificed and eaten.... kind of a downer.

6.If you are speaking of Christ while he walked on the Earth before the Passion, he never told us to change the Sabbath to Sunday either, or to put Relics in the altar, or to have altars at all for that matter, but if you are a Catholic you believe that Christ speaks through the Church, through Councils, and Popes, and Tradition. All of these have directly and indirectly called for making war on and conquering evil nations. Doyou reject the Eucummenical Councils calls to Crusade?

[Era Might]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1304956682' post='2239089']1. You'll have to make more of an arguemtn than that... I reject that it is idealogical at all, mearly reasonable.
[/quote]
Every man's ideology is reasonable to him. Yours is as reasonable to you as mine is to me. But I have no intention of making an extended argument. I just wanted to state my opinion. (Good to see you back on the phorum btw).

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1304956900' post='2239093']
Every man's ideology is reasonable to him. Yours is as reasonable to you as mine is to me. But I have no intention of making an extended argument. I just wanted to state my opinion. (Good to see you back on the phorum btw).
[/quote]

PSSSBBBTTTTT! your no fun.



I'll try to stay around for a while.... phatmass tends to take a lot of time.