To Jesussaves

[Brother Adam]

Now that you have had a chance to survey phatmass, I'd like to invite you to debate me one on one on Catholicism.

As a non-Catholic I have been defending the truth of Catholic teachings for a long time.

Just tell me something that you find wrong with Catholicism, and let's see if that is what Catholics actually believe, or if it is your own misunderstanding. Or you can just ask me a question about Catholicism and I'll see if I can answer it for you. When talking to Catholics it is easy to mince words and misunderstand.

Are you up to it?

Edited April 24, 2004 by Brother Adam

[Katholikos]

To JesusSaves

Indeed, He does!

JMJ Likos

[Brother Adam]

Long time no see.

[Brother Adam]

bump, since I see Jesussaves is posting.

[jesussaves]

hello brother adam and thank you for allowing me the chance to debate/discuss with you one on one. it will allow us concise clarity and focus. i should note that i am only here once or twice a day unlike many here. haha so if you would like for me to choose some topics, here they are:

a challenge to the authority of the catholic church (i will follow lumberjack and use Catholic Church from now on)

a challenge to the real presence

a challenge to faith plus graced works

unlike most protestants i will not focus so much on the bible. i know what the bible says and frankly think you can make it say whatever you want. i would like to emphasis the early church and God given reason. i do know more about Catholic Church than the average protestant but i know there is much i will probably learn. thank you.

Edited April 25, 2004 by jesussaves

[Brother Adam]

Hey, alright cool. We can focus on all those things, I would hope not to the exclusion of the scriptures (with how much weight they carry ) but yeah, let's delve into the early church

Let's start with soteriology (obviously always the most important topic)

Move on to the sacrament of communion

and then off to Church authority.


So I'll start us off. You say "a challenge to faith plus graced works"

Could you expand on what you mean? I don't want to assume that you would just believe the misconceptions most people have about Catholics, since you do sound like you know more than the average person!

[Brother Adam]

I wanted to add- when looking at the early church can we agree to go no father than 800AD? (as far as considering what is "early" versus "late"?

Also, for everyone, this thread is now for [b]Bro. Adam[/b] and [b]jesussaves[/b] only.

[jesussaves]

before 800 AD is fine by me. as far as soteriology. this can be a confusing topic. one would think that if you had true faith, then you would truly have true works by the grace of God. this seems reasonable, but if this is what saves us (our faith and our graced works) then none of us would ever be worthy to be saved.

now at this point a good catholic would say that we aren't worthy and yet we are saved anyway by the grace of God. but yet something has to catalyze this grace of God to use human terms.

catholics put their super ego faith in their works. they put their trust in what i earlier said seems reasonable.

my brand of protestantism puts our super ego faith in Jesus Christ. even if our faith is weak and our works as weak, we are still saved by Jesus Christ. this is where most catholics assume that we are giving licenses to sin. we are not. you can have the faith that knows that it is Jesus that saves, not us, even though you may still sin occasionally. God knows your heart.

it would be good to note that for protestants, works ARE necessary. but the serve as the bi-product of our salvation and do not factor in. a technical difference but still a difference nonetheless.

i suppose you may argue that catholics may be saved and not realize it at the moment. but the fact still remains that catholics believe that God will judge your eternity in heaven by your works when it's all said and done, correct? and protestants in my flavor believe that our works (us with faith) will be judged as to what level of heaven we will incur. the question of eternity in heaven is settled at the cross.

in the end perhaps it's only that we protestants are more specific in that we say our faith alone saves us from a judgement while catholics do not say if it's faith or if it's faith and work. i say this because i hear many catholics say we are saved by our graced works and many who say we are not. i know justification is taught by the Catholic Church to be increased by works, but as far as salvation, i'm not sure what is really taught.


another point to touch base on. i would not disagree if you were to say that living sinless saves us, depending on your definition of salvation. i have been saved from the judgement of sin. i am being saved from the power of sin in my life. and i will be saved from the punishment of sin when Christ returns and brings me home.

Edited April 25, 2004 by jesussaves

[jesussaves]

here are some copy and paste quotes from the early church. i apologize for not searching for rebuttals to the quotes below. i have in the past and decided my theology could at least stand its ground. so i leave a rebuttal to the quotes and my rationale up to you. (lest i argue with myself haha )

[quote]Clement of Rome: "We also, being called through God's will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith" (Epistle to Corinthians).

Ignatius: "His cross, and his death, and his resurrection, and the faith which is through him, are my unpolluted muniments; and in these, through your prayers, I am willing to be justified (Epistle to Philadelphians). Note: "muniments" are title deeds, documents giving evidence of legal ownership of something.

Polycarp: "I know that through grace you are saved, not of works, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ (Epistle of Philippians).

Justin Martyr: "No longer by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of a heifer...are sins purged, but by faith, through the blood of Christ and his death, who died on this very account (Dialogue with Trypho).
"God gave his own Son the ransom for us...for what, save his righteousness, could cover our sins. In whom was it possible that we, transgressors and ungodly as we were, could be justified, save in the Son of God alone? ...O unexpected benefit, that the transgression of many should be hidden in one righteous Person and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors" (Letter to Diognetus).

Ireneus: "Through the obedience of one man who first was born from the Virgin, many should be justified and receive salvation."

Cyprian: "If Abraham believed in God and it was imputed to him for righteousness, then each one, who believes in God and lives by faith, is found to be a righteous person."

Athanasius: "Not by these (i.e. human efforts) but by faith, a man is justified as was Abraham."

Basil: "This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ."

Ambrose: "Without the works of the law, to an ungodly man, that is to say, a Gentile, believing in Christ, his "faith is imputed for righteousness" as also it was to Abraham."

Origen: "Through faith, without the works of the law, the dying thief was justified, because...the Lord inquired not what he had previously wrought, nor yet waited for his performance of some work after he should have believe; but...he took him unto himself for a companion, justified through his confession alone."

Jerome: "When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through faith alone, not on account of good works which he possessed not."

Chrysostom: "What then did God do? He made (says Paul) a righteous Person (Christ) to be a sinner, in order that he might make sinners righteous... it is the righteousness of God, when we are justified, not by works...but by grace, where all sin is made to vanish away."

Augustine: "Grace is give to you, not wages paid to you...it is called grace because it is given gratuitously. By no precedent merits did you buy what you have received. The sinner therefore received this grace first, that his sins should be forgiven him...good works follow after a justified person; they do not go before in order that he may be justified...good works, following after justification, show what a man has received."

Anselm: "Do you believe that you cannot be saved but by the death of Christ? Go, then, and ...put all your confidence in this death alone. If God shall say to you, "You are a sinner", say to him, "I place the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between me and my sin.""

Bernard of Clairvaux: "Shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency? What, then, shall it be concerning our sins, when not even our righteousness can answer for itself? Wherefore...let us flee, with all humility to Mercy which alone can save our souls...whoever hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in thee, who "justified the ungodly"; and thus, being justified by faith alone, he shall have peace with God." [/quote]

[Brother Adam]

jesussaves,

You'll get my first response in the next couple of days. I take these debates seriously, so I'm going to copy and paste your post to a Word document and start working on it tonight, just so you know that I am going to respond

God Bless!

[megamattman1]

Also some administrative aspects for the sake of efficiency.

First, some other useful websites:
www.chnetwork.org/journals/
www.catholic.com
www.newadvent.org
www.justforcatholics.org
www.blueletterbible.com (or use the one in the previous link)
www.ccel.org/fathers2
www.google.com use " " & many other search techniques

When browsing websites use "shift + arrow" or "mouse click + roller" to select, "crt + c" to copy, "crt + v" to paste, and "crt + f" to find something on a page (be sure to use the copy and paste in the search bar). It says all this in the toolbar, but, if you're like me, it'll take awhile to figure it out for yourself.

Edited April 25, 2004 by megamattman1

[jesussaves]

brother adam,
have you made any decisions regarding this thread or your stance on the Catholic Church?

[jesussaves]

brother adam seems to have stopped coming to the phorum since i began talking to him. maybe it's a coincidence or i'm not seeing him. would anyone else care to continue our dialouge?

[Joseph]

Brother Adam is here.

*BUMP*

[Brother Adam]

Oh my gosh! I so completely forgot about this thread. I feel so horrible. Since I said I was going to get back to you my wife and I had made the decision to become Catholic, and I've been working on my own website at www.flyfreeministries.org which between that and work has taken up the vast majority of my time! I sincerely apologize for having let this go like that!

[quote]Basil: "This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by [b]faith alone in Christ[/b]

Jerome: "When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through [b]faith alone[/b]  not on account of good works which he possessed not."

Bernard of Clairvaux: "Shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency? What, then, shall it be concerning our sins, when not even our righteousness can answer for itself? Wherefore...let us flee, with all humility to Mercy which alone can save our souls...whoever hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in thee, who "justified the ungodly"; and thus, being justified[b] by faith alone[/b], he shall have peace with God." [/quote]

These three verses interest me so I'm going to have to look them up and get back to you on them. In the mean time, yeah, with how busy I've gotten, and that I'm technically not "non-Catholic" anymore we better go ahead and say everyone can post in this thread.

Edited May 21, 2004 by Brother Adam