Religious Freedom In Europe

[Cow of Shame]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Jan 19 2006, 10:17 AM']
And imagine the lives that would be saved with the banning of abortion!?!?!

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A bit of the ends justifying the means, eh?

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='dandy777' date='Jan 19 2006, 04:32 PM']It is only when practised properly.
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[url="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0838636780/ref=sib_rdr_dp/103-6229786-9917422?%5Fencoding=UTF8&me=ATVPDKIKX0DER&no=283155&st=books&n=283155"]The Decline of Eastern Christianity Under Islam : From Jihad to Dhimmitude : Seventh-Twentieth Century by Bat Ye'or[/url]

[dustthouart]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Jan 19 2006, 12:17 PM']And imagine the lives that would be saved with the banning of abortion!?!?!
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Imagine the souls that would be lost?

Which is more important: the soul or the body?

And Islamic states persecute and martyr Christians!

Besides many schools of Islam allow abortion up until day 120 of the pregnancy, they believe that the fetus is not human until then. Others allow it until day 40. In fact all the Sunni schools allow abortion of some kind.

Bahrain, for example, allows abortion on demand. The official religion of Bahrain is Islam.

[son_of_angels]

[quote name='musturde' date='Jan 19 2006, 03:29 PM']Look at Saudi Arabia for an example of a Government based on Islam. It's alright... i guess. No drinking, camera phones, revealing outfits (any part of the arm, leg, or face showing) in public. There are, from what I hear, Christian areas in Saudi that are blocked off from the rest of the public. They can wear regular clothes. My cousin is moving there because her future husband works there. My second cousin is Saudi and Lebanese. Its not completely a bad thing to live under a government with such conditions, it's just a pain sometimes.
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Ok, I have a bone to pick with this message. So many Christian women I hear complaining about having to wear a veil or a burka in Muslim nations, but I think the Bible (1 Cor.) is quite clear, that Christian women should be the most modest in a society, not the ones causing trouble! What reward is there, if a woman is punished for being scandalous? But if she is punished for being the most modest, how much greater the reward!

[son_of_angels]

[quote name='dustthouart' date='Jan 18 2006, 09:39 PM']I disagree. Wrong religions are fully as horrible when they're in control. Look at how Afghanistan was under the Taliban.

I don't think the Church should have temporal authority, because it invites corruption. I think all the people in the world should be Catholics, and that politicians and rulers should be driven by Catholic morals. But the Pope as temporal leader, for example... it was a disaster in the Renaissance! Alexander VI, Julius II... 
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But who are YOU to deny the pope any of his claims to authority. HE is our universal shepherd, not the European Parliament, not the President of the United States, not the UN Secretary-General, but the Vicar of the King! This is why groups like the UN and EU are doomed to failure, because they are not designed for universal kingship and authority, nor do they try to derive their splendour from that one Light.

Personally, I feel that the EU's recent activities prove that the pope needs to set up his own European alliance, to defend TRUE human rights and protect the sovereignty of member nations wishing to uphold Catholic morals.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Jan 20 2006, 12:46 PM']Ok, I have a bone to pick with this message. So many Christian women I hear complaining about having to wear a veil or a burka in Muslim nations, but I think the Bible (1 Cor.) is quite clear, that Christian women should be the most modest in a society, not the ones causing trouble!  What reward is there, if a woman is punished for being scandalous? But if she is punished for being the most modest, how much greater the reward!
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You're not seriously defending Saudi Arabia? The country where its illegal to bring in Bibles?

[son_of_angels]

I am not defending its policies towards the Christian religion....but women being scandalous and dressed improperly for their society is never justified, whatever that society is (unless the reason for scandal is their excessive modesty), and certainly not a part of the Catholic faith.

[dandy777]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jan 20 2006, 03:22 AM']Where are you from, Dandy?  Portugal?
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No I am Maltese. In our Constitution there is written that most of our population holds the Roman Catholic faith and it is considered to be the official faith even though it doesn't deny or refrain anyone from having a different faith than Catholicism. In fact, we have different minority groups non-Catholic Christians (mainly Evangelical and Baptist), Jews and Muslims. This means that state schools teach Roman Catholicsm as the national faith and most of the kids get this upbringing. It has its advantages and disadvantages like anything else in the world.

The Church has a lot of power in our country and in the past, it influenced most of the political issues. In these times, it speaks more on moral issues rathert than political. A very hot issue is divorce. It is illegal in our country. Many people are troubled about this and sometimes, I am as well. I mean I don't agree with divorce but I think that people who are non-believers and want to divorce have every right to do so. Why should be stop them from doing it if they don't actually believe in marriage? It is ridiculous.

As regards to Islam, I am very skeptic about it. Many Muslims come into our country because of our geographical position apart from the thousands of illegal immigrants who come to our homeland. I don't like the subtle way they convert a person (especially the Maltese women who they marry). Most of them are forced to change faith and wear veils and observe Ramadan and bring their children up as Muslims. It is a sad story!

[Socrates]

[quote name='dandy777' date='Jan 20 2006, 01:05 PM']No I am Maltese. In our Constitution there is written that most of our population holds the Roman Catholic faith and it is considered to be the official faith even though it doesn't deny or refrain anyone from having a different faith than Catholicism. In fact, we have different minority groups non-Catholic Christians (mainly Evangelical and Baptist), Jews and Muslims. This means that state schools teach Roman Catholicsm as the national faith and most of the kids get this upbringing. It has its advantages and disadvantages like anything else in the world.

The Church has a lot of power in our country and in the past, it influenced most of the political issues. In these times, it speaks more on moral issues rathert than political. A very hot issue is divorce. It is illegal in our country. Many people are troubled about this and sometimes, I am as well. I mean I don't agree with divorce but I think that people who are non-believers and want to divorce have every right to do so. Why should be stop them from doing it if they don't actually believe in marriage?  It is ridiculous.

As regards to Islam, I am very skeptic about it. Many Muslims come into our country because of our geographical position apart from the thousands of illegal immigrants who come to our homeland. I don't like the subtle way they convert a person (especially the Maltese women who they marry). Most of them are forced to change faith and wear veils and observe Ramadan and bring their children up as Muslims. It is a sad story!
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From what I've heard, Malta is one of the very few truly Catholic countries left in Europe.

[dustthouart]

[quote name='dandy777' date='Jan 20 2006, 03:05 PM'] I mean I don't agree with divorce but I think that people who are non-believers and want to divorce have every right to do so. Why should be stop them from doing it if they don't actually believe in marriage?  It is ridiculous.
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See how this reasoning could work another way:
"I mean I don't agree with gay marriage but I think that people who are non-believers and want to marry people of their own sex have every right to do so. Why should be stop them from doing it if they don't actually believe in marriage? It is ridiculous."

Etc etc.

Remember the Lord's Prayer: "On earth as it is in heaven." We should be working for God's will here on earth, not merely waiting for death.

[Lounge Daddy]

peace in our time! I promote peace in our time!
oh ... wait... no i don't

[dandy777]

[quote name='dustthouart' date='Jan 21 2006, 06:32 AM']See how this reasoning could work another way:
"I mean I don't agree with gay marriage but I think that people who are non-believers and want to marry people of their own sex have every right to do so. Why should be stop them from doing it if they don't actually believe in marriage?  It is ridiculous."

Etc etc.

Remember the Lord's Prayer: "On earth as it is in heaven." We should be working for God's will here on earth, not merely waiting for death.
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why should a person who doesn't believe in marriage as a blessed sacrament, a union from God, be stopped from divorcing? for that person marriage is just a legal union despite what you and I believe.

likewise, why would you be stopped from doing something just because the rest of the people in your country believe otherwise?

I know what you mean but we should testimony through love and actions and not by prohibition. I believe in prevention rather than cure and I think the key is to teach young couples the real meaning of marriage, first on a human level and then on a spiritual level.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='dandy777' date='Jan 21 2006, 12:17 PM']why should a person who doesn't believe in marriage as a blessed sacrament, a union from God, be stopped from divorcing? for that person marriage is just a legal union despite what you and I believe.

likewise, why would you be stopped from doing something just because the rest of the people in your country believe otherwise?

I know what you mean but we should testimony through love and actions and not by prohibition. I believe in prevention rather than cure and I think the key is to teach young couples the real meaning of marriage, first on a human level and then on a spiritual level.
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Using that line of argument you could justify the legalisation of basically anything the non-Catholic world believes in e.g. euthanasia, abortion, infanticide etc.etc.

Edited January 21, 2006 by Myles

[dandy777]

no I am not, the issues you mentioned are illegal...they go against human rights as they take away the freedom of the individual concerned. Divorce doesn't.

One cannot mix divorce with abortion or the like. There is a clear distinction between the two.

[Myles Domini]

[quote name='dandy777' date='Jan 21 2006, 12:40 PM']no I am not, the issues you mentioned are illegal...they go against human rights as they take away the freedom of the individual concerned. Divorce doesn't.

One cannot mix divorce with abortion or the like.  There is a clear distinction between the two.
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What I'm saying is that the premise because I'm not Catholic I shouldnt have to can be taken from divorce and applied to any number of different circumstances including the ones outlined. You have made the distinction between divorce and abortion based upon human rights but what are human rights and how do you defend human rights philosophically?