Affirmative Action

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1304542679' post='2237052']
Dude black people couldn't even use the same bathroom or drink out of the same waterfountian as whites. They deserve any small benefits they may get now. That being said there are poor people of every race that are treated like croutons. But black people were singled out bad in this country.
[/quote]

ha, i was just gonna write something similar to this, but mine was gonna be rude....

oh, heck, I'll just say this...


when your race is singled out for centuries, treated like animals, whipped, hunted, hated, hung and butchered, ...


Then come back and say something about what you think about affirmative action....

[Amppax]

[quote name='rhetoricfemme' timestamp='1304541711' post='2237047']

I also recall when my best friend got an apology letter from the University of Michigan stating that the only reason she wasn't accepted into the school was because they had met their quota for while female students and needed to include a certain number of students from other ethnic backgrounds as well. While she's actually an MSU girl at heart, she spent all her time in high school busting her butt to be good enough for U of M. She had the GPA, the extracurricular and volunteer experiences that should have made her a shoe-in, but she had to settle for an apology letter five years down the road.
[/quote]

That is not right, in fact I think that is pure wrong. However, an abuse of the system doesn't mean the system is inherently wrong.

[ParadiseFound]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1304542679' post='2237052']
Dude black people couldn't even use the same bathroom or drink out of the same waterfountian as whites. They deserve any small benefits they may get now. That being said there are poor people of every race that are treated like croutons. But black people were singled out bad in this country.
[/quote]
That was an awful thing, but the generation of blacks growing up now didn't have to put up with it and the generation of whites growing up now did not cause it.

[MithLuin]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1304536885' post='2236993']

Hiring based on any criteria other than skill, experience, and ability is wrong. Always.
[/quote]

I must respectfully disagree. I have amesome, amesome coworkers. No, seriously, probably the best group of teachers I've ever worked with. And why are they so? Well, the principal, who hired every single one of us (it's a new school), made 'the mission' one of the most important criteria in hiring. In other words, he hired people who were committed to the mission of the school and interested in doing what it is that we're trying to do here.

Yes, he hired people who were qualified and had experience. He made us all come in and teach a class to show that we had the skills and ability to do our job.

But buying into the school's mission isn't about work experience.

You don't have to be Catholic to work here. And you don't have to be black. But certainly, there is an active goal to have a diverse faculty who can relate to our students (the minority of whom are white).



I find affirmative action annoying, because it points out a big mess and creates a lot of red tape and hoops to jump through.

But....I think people (not on this thread) are naive to think that there's 'no issue' because of the Civil Rights movement having already happened. Prior to the Civil War, most blacks in this country were slaves lacking basic human rights. They weren't even seen as people, and certainly couldn't get a job, or marry, etc. Afterwards, they were treated as second-class citizens for a full century in many places, so that no amount of 'hard work' would allow them to change their lot in life. They weren't like other poor immigrants who came to this country, worked hard, and had children who grew up to live the American dream. No matter how hard they worked, they were denied and turned away.

Do you know what that does to a culture?

I see affirmative action as a...promise...from society that hard work will actually pay off this time. That, hey, you can get into those schools and get those jobs, and vote for who you want, and it's not a secret wink, wink, just kidding, go away.

[quote] If youse white, you're alright.
If youse brown, stick around.
But as youse black...
Mm-mm brother, get back, get back, get back.

~ Big Bill Broonzy[/quote]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0c1c0ZsTLA[/media]

Affirmative Action is a stop-gap measure, and will eventually not be needed. One could hope. Certainly, there are some injustices involved in this imperfect arrangement, but it is still an improvement over the injustices of Jim Crow and 'separate but equal' education.

[ParadiseFound]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1304542931' post='2237055']
when your race is singled out for centuries, treated like animals, whipped, hunted, hated, hung and butchered, ...


Then come back and say something about what you think about affirmative action....
[/quote]
I know this really isn't the same thing, but just look at how the Dutch settlers in South Africa were treated by the British (if you don't know about this Google 'Lizzie van Zyl' as an example. Be warned, it's quite a shocking photo). I did not expect any special treatment when I went to study in Britain because it did not effect me personally.

[dominicansoul]

[quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1304543056' post='2237059']
That was an awful thing, but the generation of blacks growing up now didn't have to put up with it and the generation of whites growing up now did not cause it.
[/quote]


...have you ever heard of the "sins of the fathers falling upon their sons???"

what white peeps complain about, not getting into school after all their hard work, etc. etc., well, not even a century ago, some little black kid was getting his head beaten in for whistling at a white woman...he would never live to see his grown up years, and even if he did, getting into a good school wasn't even an option...the parallels do not even compare.....

[Amppax]

[quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1304543056' post='2237059']
That was an awful thing, but the generation of blacks growing up now didn't have to put up with it and the generation of whites growing up now did not cause it.
[/quote]

No I agree, but you can't isolate yourself from history.

[Amppax]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1304543095' post='2237060']
I must respectfully disagree. I have amesome, amesome coworkers. No, seriously, probably the best group of teachers I've ever worked with. And why are they so? Well, the principal, who hired every single one of us (it's a new school), made 'the mission' one of the most important criteria in hiring. In other words, he hired people who were committed to the mission of the school and interested in doing what it is that we're trying to do here.

Yes, he hired people who were qualified and had experience. He made us all come in and teach a class to show that we had the skills and ability to do our job.

But buying into the school's mission isn't about work experience.

You don't have to be Catholic to work here. And you don't have to be black. But certainly, there is an active goal to have a diverse faculty who can relate to our students (the minority of whom are white).



I find affirmative action annoying, because it points out a big mess and creates a lot of red tape and hoops to jump through.

But....I think people (not on this thread) are naive to think that there's 'no issue' because of the Civil Rights movement having already happened. Prior to the Civil War, most blacks in this country were slaves lacking basic human rights. They weren't even seen as people, and certainly couldn't get a job, or marry, etc. Afterwards, they were treated as second-class citizens for a full century in many places, so that no amount of 'hard work' would allow them to change their lot in life. They weren't like other poor immigrants who came to this country, worked hard, and had children who grew up to live the American dream. No matter how hard they worked, they were denied and turned away.

Do you know what that does to a culture?

I see affirmative action as a...promise...from society that hard work will actually pay off this time. That, hey, you can get into those schools and get those jobs, and vote for who you want, and it's not a secret wink, wink, just kidding, go away.



[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0c1c0ZsTLA[/media]

Affirmative Action is a stop-gap measure, and will eventually not be needed. One could hope. Certainly, there are some injustices involved in this imperfect arrangement, but it is still an improvement over the injustices of Jim Crow and 'separate but equal' education.
[/quote]

YES, YES, AND YES!

[dUSt]

If one defines affirmative action as "hiring based on race", then I understand why it is a problem. Defined like that, it is wrong. Employers should not base hiring on race.

But, I don't really view it in that sense. I look at it as more of a law put into place to discourage racism and to "even out" the years of oppression of minorities. As Catholics, we should all be familiar with this concept. It's called penance.

The fact is, there were laws in this country for a very long time that caused a lot of harm, and created a significant disadvantage for certain races. Just because those laws were changed doesn't mean that the harm was undone. It is necessary to create laws that "fix" the harm that has been done.

I know many will say we can't live in the past, and I agree, but sadly, racism and discrimination still exist today--in the present.

[Amppax]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304543936' post='2237075']
If one defines affirmative action as "hiring based on race", then I understand why it is a problem. Defined like that, it is wrong. Employers should not base hiring on race.

But, I don't really view it in that sense. I look at it as more of a law put into place to discourage racism and to "even out" the years of oppression of minorities. As Catholics, we should all be familiar with this concept. It's called penance.

The fact is, there were laws in this country for a very long time that caused a lot of harm, and created a significant disadvantage for certain races. Just because those laws were changed doesn't mean that the harm was undone. It is necessary to create laws that "fix" the harm that has been done.

I know many will say we can't live in the past, and I agree, but sadly, racism and discrimination still exist today--in the present.
[/quote]

MORE YES!!!

[ParadiseFound]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1304543597' post='2237068']
...have you ever heard of the "sins of the fathers falling upon their sons???"
[/quote]
I don't believe in this concept, in fact I strongly disagree with it. I don't hold young German accountable for the atrocities of the Nazis. I don't blame young Britons for the numerous hideous acts that their forefathers carried out. I don't want young Russians to be punished for all the awful things that happened under the Soviet Union. It just makes absolutely no sense to me.

[Guest]

I remember when respected posters here used to argue racism wasn't going on today. It was a joke. Amercia is still a very racist country without a doubt.

[Amppax]

[quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1304544239' post='2237078']
I don't believe in this concept, in fact I strongly disagree with it. I don't hold young German accountable for the atrocities of the Nazis. I don't blame young Britons for the numerous hideous acts that their forefathers carried out. I don't want young Russians to be punished for all the awful things that happened under the Soviet Union. It just makes absolutely no sense to me.
[/quote]

I agree. I don't think that we should hold them accountable. but look at Germany, actually its a perfect example. Do you know how sensitive they are about Nazism? They go out of there way as a nation to vehemently condemn any form of it.

And i would extend that argument to affirmative action. No, we are not punishing ourselves for the sins of our fathers. But we are going out of our way to make sure it never happens again, in fact we are actively trying to make sure it doesn't.

[ParadiseFound]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1304544897' post='2237084']
I remember when respected posters here used to argue racism wasn't going on today. It was a joke. Amercia is still a very racist country without a doubt.
[/quote]
Unfortunately, there's still a lot of discrimination in a lot of countries...Not just racism either. It seems in our nature to harbour a mistrust to people we consider 'different', whether we mean to or not. However, despite its good intentions, I don't think that affirmative action is the right approach to tackling this. I feel that it does more harm than good, for example if someone loses out on a job or a university placement because they have the wrong skin colour or are the wrong gender and don't fit into the 'quota' they're perhaps going to feel bitterly towards minorities because they got the place instead. I'm not going to say that that is the right response, but it happens. I've seen it happen.

Just a thought.

[ParadiseFound]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304545316' post='2237090']
I agree. I don't think that we should hold them accountable. but look at Germany, actually its a perfect example. Do you know how sensitive they are about Nazism? They go out of there way as a nation to vehemently condemn any form of it.

And i would extend that argument to affirmative action. No, we are not punishing ourselves for the sins of our fathers. But we are going out of our way to make sure it never happens again, in fact we are actively trying to make sure it doesn't.
[/quote]
Really good points, but I don't understand the logic behind compensating for descriminating against people because of their skin colour by discriminating against people because of their skin colour. It would be like the German government saying 'Ok, we're going to put in place another dictatorship except this time the Jews are the master race and people with blonde hair and blue eyes are going to be hunted down and exterminated'. It doesn't make it OK..

Edited May 4, 2011 by ParadiseFound