Affirmative Action

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305657589' post='2242877']
I think this is an important distinction.

People are usually a product of their environment. If the parents came from bad parents born into poverty and un-education, and those parents came from bad parents born into poverty and un-education, then chances are, the problem just passed down through the generations. Your family probably has a history of a better work ethic. Your family history most likely did not involve things like forced segregation, FHA loans that would only allow blacks to purchase houses in specific areas, not being allowed to have the same education in public schools, and Jim Crow laws that forced blacks into a perpetual state of poverty. These are things that have lead to exactly what you describe, and it's going to take more than simply abolishing them for the effects of them to be corrected.
[/quote]

You got one point right
People are a product of their evironment, but environment can be overcome no matter what color you are but I'm in Pennsylvania maybe Texas is just different Black people here in my town have the same general housing stock, and educational opportunites are the same as white people since there is only one school system. Our library serves everyone. Our town did have people living in certain areas: the italians had one section, the germans a different one, the irish and blacks others, but the blacks ( like the other groups) had their own thriving churches, businesses and social clubs. The rich lived out in the suburbs. Were black people poorer than most whites - yes - but so were the irish. Was there discrimination, yep but it was ethnic and religious, not just on color. White protestants were not willing to share with anyone.
The depression changed all that: my family and everyone else lost everything in the depression, so my grandparents had 12 -14 people living in a 3 room house. They survived because they planted a garden or they would have starved. My grandfather couldn't get a job because he married an irish catholic girl so he could only get day work. Only one of my uncles ever got to buy a house. But what they did have was a work ethic, because if you didn't find some kind of work you would starve. Welfare, unmarried mothers and drugs changed that for your generation.

[Groo the Wanderer]

I am a manager and hiring quotas be damned. I am responsible for delivering certain targets. I will hire whomever I feel is the most qualified that will do the best job for me. Sometimes the qualifications aren't who has the most tech knowledge but who has the personality that blends in best with the culture on my staff. This job requires teamwork and a maverick cannot get the job done. I will not hire someone based on race, nor on country of origin, nor on sex, even though our industry is 98% male.








Unless the applicant is a left-handed, red-headed irish lass with a strong accent and likes beer....then all bets are off...

[Era Might]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1305659230' post='2242902']
If I, a reasonably handsome and intelligent 'white guy', go apply for a job at a place in which 99.9999999999% are 'white'; and I don't get the job because I am not black...that is discrimination.
[/quote]
The "best candidate" doesn't always have to get the job. People even get rejected for being over-qualified. There are legitimate reasons to pick someone for a position other than merely the ability to do the job. People can learn on the job...choosing to hire a non-white person in a position for Affirmative Action reasons can be legitimate, even if that person is not the most qualified for the position. In fact, it's sometimes BETTER to have someone who is not fully qualified, so that they can grow with the position. With Affirmative Action, the added purpose is to strengthen the place of non-whites in a society where Civil Rights for those people is barely 50 years old. Will Affirmative Action be perfect? Of course not...no policy is ever perfect.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Era Might

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1305664362' post='2242940']
The "best candidate" doesn't always have to get the job. People even get rejected for being over-qualified. There are legitimate reasons to pick someone for a position other than merely the ability to do the job. People can learn on the job...choosing to hire a non-white person in a position for Affirmative Action reasons can be legitimate, even if that person is not the most qualified for the position. In fact, it's sometimes BETTER to have someone who is not fully qualified, so that they can grow with the position. With Affirmative Action, the added purpose is to strengthen the place of non-whites in a society where Civil Rights for those people is barely 50 years old. Will Affirmative Action be perfect? Of course not...no policy is ever perfect.
[/quote]
THe purpose of the Gulags in Stalinst Russia was to strengthen the prolitariate and reduce the chance for counter revolution. So what?

whatever AA's purpose, it is institutionalized racism and therefore wrong. No Catholic should support actually the government codifiying the making of decisions about people based on the color of their skin, whatever the goal of such racism should be.

As I asked before,what about hispanics, they were considered white in the old south. What about Catholics which were treated horribly in most of the counrty at one time or another., an are stilldiscriminated against in many places?


Topunish a man for something he did not do is unjust, that is exactly what AA does.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305664983' post='2242944']
THe purpose of the Gulags in Stalinst Russia was to strengthen the prolitariate and reduce the chance for counter revolution. So what?

whatever AA's purpose, it is institutionalized racism and therefore wrong. No Catholic should support actually the government codifiying the making of decisions about people based on the color of their skin, whatever the goal of such racism should be.

As I asked before,what about hispanics, they were considered white in the old south. What about Catholics which were treated horribly in most of the counrty at one time or another., an are stilldiscriminated against in many places?


Topunish a man for something he did not do is unjust, that is exactly what AA does.
[/quote]
Affirmative Action does not have to be limited to skin color. I have no problem with Affirmative Action for poor whites in Appalachia or whatever other group it could legitimately benefit.

Racism is racial hatred. Advancing the Civil Rights accomplishments by promoting blacks in position of employment has nothing to do with racism. If you disagree with Affirmative Action, so be it...I have no problem listening to alternative opinions, but it's silly to compare Affirmative Action with racism.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Era Might

[thessalonian]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305643872' post='2242774']
Because a black man, his wife, and his children are still being punished by the sins of your grandfather.
[/quote]


Hey I like this. This means we should shoot the abortion doctors because they kill babies. Two wrongs do make a right. I thought you said above that it didn't hurt anyone. I would have thought you would have said "your not being punished". You just can't avoid inconsistency.

Edited May 17, 2011 by thessalonian

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1305664362' post='2242940']
The "best candidate" doesn't always have to get the job. People even get rejected for being over-qualified. There are legitimate reasons to pick someone for a position other than merely the ability to do the job. People can learn on the job...choosing to hire a non-white person in a position for Affirmative Action reasons can be legitimate, even if that person is not the most qualified for the position. In fact, it's sometimes BETTER to have someone who is not fully qualified, so that they can grow with the position. With Affirmative Action, the added purpose is to strengthen the place of non-whites in a society where Civil Rights for those people is barely 50 years old. Will Affirmative Action be perfect? Of course not...no policy is ever perfect.
[/quote]
i pretty much agree with you.

except i said the reason i was not hired was 'because' i was not black... as in the reason...the sole reason...the decision making reason. I could have been less qualified, or less handsome (which I admit is highly doubtful)..but if i was not hired 'because' i was not black...then that's discrimination.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1305663342' post='2242932']
I am a manager and hiring quotas be damned. I am responsible for delivering certain targets. I will hire whomever I feel is the most qualified that will do the best job for me. Sometimes the qualifications aren't who has the most tech knowledge but who has the personality that blends in best with the culture on my staff. This job requires teamwork and a maverick cannot get the job done. I will not hire someone based on race, nor on country of origin, nor on sex, even though our industry is 98% male.










Unless the applicant is a left-handed, red-headed irish lass with a strong accent and likes beer....then all bets are off...
[/quote]

You racist dog.

[MithLuin]

Again, could we please not call each other racists, even as a joke? As tempting as it is, DON'T GO THERE.

Personal attacks are not nice or conducive to discussion.

[Don John of Austria]

rac·ism   /ˈreɪsɪzəm/
[rey-siz-uhm]
–noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.


I think Affirmative Action fit both the first and second definition.

I will grant that as it applys to the first definition it may not include the second clause, but the second clause says ussually, it is not part ofthe definition persay.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1305665471' post='2242950']. This means we should shoot the abortion doctors because they kill babies. [/quote]



This is not analgous... shooting the Grandchildren of abortion doctors becuase thier grandparents killed babies would be analgous.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305659150' post='2242899']
What about companies which have no white employees? Or only a token white person? I have found this quite a bit. and what makes it just, do the percentages have to exactly equal the population? I find this absurd but for the sake of arguement, lets accept it? The population of where? If I live in ND where there are very few Blacks at all, does my company have to reflect the racial breakdown of the country? If I am a company with multiple offices, does the compnay as a whole need to reflect the racial make up of the Country or should each office reflect the make up of the community, or the state,, or of the nation? What about Hispanics? in the South they were concidered white, they went to white schools and married white people.. why are they advantaged?
[/quote]
I don't know the answers to any of these questions. All I know is that affirmative action is not discrimination against whites.

[dUSt]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1305659230' post='2242902']
If I, a reasonably handsome and intelligent 'white guy', go apply for a job at a place in which 99.9999999999% are 'white'; and I don't get the job because I am not black...that is discrimination.
[/quote]
No, it means that 99.9999999999% of the white people are smarter than you.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305667884' post='2242973']
I don't know the answers to any of these questions. All I know is that affirmative action is not discrimination against whites.
[/quote]


So what your telling me is you take it as a matter of Faith, as a given.

I can acceptthat asa position, I just don't agree with it.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305667197' post='2242969']
This is not analgous... shooting the Grandchildren of abortion doctors becuase thier grandparents killed babies would be analgous.
[/quote]
This is a very poor analogy, although, it does lend some insight into the way some of you think: Hiring black people is the equivalent of shooting grandchildren. Nice.