Affirmative Action

[dUSt]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305645097' post='2242788']
Being more qualified is not subjecttive.

If I have an advanced degree in the topic, more experiance and a consistant record of results, I am more qualified than the person with a bachelors degree, wihtout much experiance and no record of results.

Qualifications are not subjective
[/quote]
But what if the job is in an inner city. What if the black person doesn't have as many qualifications as you, but based on the demographic, he is hired because of his perceived ability to better communicate or interact with the kids?

What if someone was hiring a guest speaker to speak to a group of alcoholics? They had to choose between someone who had multiple master degrees in psychology, medicine, behavior, etc. This person also had years of experience in public speaking. The other choice was a guy who was an alcoholic with a heart-wrenching story of his addiction and how he overcame it.

The first guy is probably more "qualified", but the second guy got hired to speak because of his connection to the crowd. I could give many more examples.

Qualifications are subjective.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305646394' post='2242803']
But what if the job is in an inner city. What if the black person doesn't have as many qualifications as you, but based on the demographic, he is hired because of his perceived ability to better communicate or interact with the kids?

What if someone was hiring a guest speaker to speak to a group of alcoholics? They had to choose between someone who had multiple master degrees in psychology, medicine, behavior, etc. This person also had years of experience in public speaking. The other choice was a guy who was an alcoholic with a heart-wrenching story of his addiction and how he overcame it.

The first guy is probably more "qualified", but the second guy got hired to speak because of his connection to the crowd. I could give many more examples. "Qualifications" are subjective.
[/quote]


Those are not subjective, they are simply differnet qualifications.

You can say, as part of a job requirment.


Should be an alcoholic, and reformed gang member if you want. Then those become qualifications, they are not subjective. they either are or are not quifications for the Job. But they are not subjective.

None of those are about race.
, race, in so much as it exist (I actually would say race is a made up construct wit hno scientific validity, all the other races of man are gone) is a quality which is beyond the control of persons. So is gender. Niether are just criteria for a qualification becuase neither can be affected by the persons involved.
In Catholic school to teach religion one must be a practicing Catholic. An athiest my have a Phd. in Catholic Theology, but one must be Catholic to be qualified.

Thats fine.

Being Catholic, or even being a former gang member is a specific criteria that the employer thinks necessary to do the Job. They are modifiable .
they might be qualifications but like all qualifications should be presented upfront.

Racism is racism, to say that being black is a qualification is okay means it is okay to say that being white is a qualification.

White people can't be from the inner city?

[Papist]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305645175' post='2242789']
The one who has the more ghetto name.
[/quote]
You make a very compelling case.

[Socrates]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305574748' post='2242438']
I don't know.[/quote]
A good, honest answer.
I like it.


[quote]No, I think it is about justice for historical misdeeds.[/quote]
So if your great-great granddaddy committed some crime 150 years ago, and you (who had nothing to do with his crime) were thrown in prison for it, would that be justice?

[quote]I disagree with doing this, but I don't think I'd have a problem with a program that helps jews reclaim some of their lost property, even if it may inconvenience a few modern Germans.[/quote]
If it were property that were indeed stolen/confiscated perhaps something could be worked out that would help them reclaim it without unduly depriving innocent persons of their property in the process (at least monetarily reimbursing those currently owning the property and helping them relocate).
However, injustice towards present-day Germans simply on account of their race/nationality (even if done in the name of "justice" for the Jews) remains just that - injustice.

And AA does not even really address "ancestral guilt," but is based solely on broad, generic racial categories of "black" "white," etc.

I'm white, but, to my knowledge, none of my ancestors were slave-owners. (They were Yankees, poor Southerners, and post-war immigrants.)
And why should a white descendant of recent immigrants from Europe be discriminated against simply on account of his race?
Likewise, why should a black immigrant from Africa or elsewhere, or his children, whose ancestors suffered no injustice at all in America, benefit from AA over a white citizen?

Pardon my political incorrectness, but the color of skin I was born with does not make me guilty of anything, nor does it make me owe anybody anything.
Likewise, simply being of the black race does not mean you are owed anything not owed to any other human being.


Justice belongs to people as individuals, not to "races."


[quote]Well, I certainly don't agree with unjust discrimination. But like I said, the argument can be made that some discrimination is justified. AA hasn't eliminated ghettos. It may not be the best answer. I haven't heard anyone suggest anything better though. There are many other horrible government programs in place (welfare, section 8 housing, etc.) that actually counter-act anything that might actually be working. Programs that discourage work are bad. Programs that encourage work are good. That's why I don't have a big problem with AA.[/quote]
Programs that unjustly discriminate based on skin color or not good, regardless of what color is being unjustly discriminated against.


[quote]This is the kind of stuff that we need to correct.[/quote]
What, not judging a man on the color of his skin?

[Don John of Austria]

Why are not irish, who were heavily discriminated against here for at least a century,included in the AA programs?

[Era Might]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305654380' post='2242850']
Why are not irish, who were heavily discriminated against here for at least a century,included in the AA programs?
[/quote]
How does Alcoholics Anonymous discriminate against the Irish?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1305654465' post='2242851']
How does Alcoholics Anonymous discriminate against the Irish?
[/quote]


Oh I'm sure there are a disproportionate number of Irish in alcoholics anonynous.... Doesn't disproportionate impact = discrimination?

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1305654255' post='2242848']
Pardon my political incorrectness, but the color of skin I was born with does not make me guilty of anything, nor does it make me owe anybody anything.
Likewise, simply being of the black race does not mean you are owed anything not owed to any other human being.
[/quote]
From the Hell-Has-Frozen-Over files.....

I agree with Socrates.

[dUSt]

I'm not going to keep repeating the same things over and over.

I think you all keep trying to argue that it is wrong for white people to be discriminated against. Okay. I agree with you. Stop arguing that.
[b]We agree that it is wrong to discriminate, no matter what color.[/b] There's no point in you continuing to beat a dead horse.

The distinction is, I don't believe AA is discrimination.

Discrimination would mean that you do not get hired because you are white. That's a silly argument to make when the company already has 95% white employees. Makes no sense.

So, please stop arguing that discrimination is wrong, because it's not really addressing or countering any of the points I have made. Thanks guys!

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304551911' post='2237189']
Also, have you ever thought about what it takes for a black person to have the "same qualifications" as a white person. Realistically? Wouldn't it be safe to assume, depending on the most probable scenario, that the average black person would have to work a lot harder than the average white person to achieve those "same qualifications"? Is [b]that[/b] fair? Why should black people have to work harder to achieve the same results? Not fair at all if you ask me.
The whole purpose of affirmative action is to help black people escape from the culture of poverty and to assimilate back into the rest of society. If that means a few less qualified people get jobs over the more privileged, so be it. It's only correcting the wrongs that shouldn't have happened in the first place.
[/quote]


Sorry but I totally disagree with this. To me its a liberal excuse.
I LIVE in a mixed neighborhood IN culture of poverty. I am surrounded by drug dealers, abandoned houses, gangs of children running the streets with guns. Pit bulls roam the streets at night. The last time we walked the dogs ( German Shepherds and St Bernards) we were shot with BB guns so we can't do that anymore. People get mugged in broad daylight. There has been eight shootings connected to the house next to me. My good neighbors have cameras and permits to carry concealed weapons. To walk across the alley at night, my neighbors lets the dogs out and stands on the porch.
For the most part my kids went to public schools, which smell of elderberries. But my kids are succeeding not because they are white, but because they have WORKED for everything they have. They were not out running the streets since they were seven years old, they were doing their homework, and when they were 13 bugging the local businesses for jobs. If they wanted expensive sneakers they earned the money as they did their own cars and college educations.The black kids in my neighborhood had the same chances my kids had, and if they had good hardworking parents who kept them in line, then those kids are succeeding in life. We also have the best charter school in the US here and those kids will all succeed because their parents care enough to demand excellence from their kids.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1305656578' post='2242869']
Sorry but I totally disagree with this. To me its a liberal excuse.
I LIVE in a mixed neighborhood IN culture of poverty. I am surrounded by drug dealers, abandoned houses, gangs of children running the streets with guns. Pit bulls roam the streets at night. The last time we walked the dogs ( German Shepherds and St Bernards) we were shot with BB guns so we can't do that anymore. People get mugged in broad daylight. There has been eight shootings connected to the house next to me. My good neighbors have cameras and permits to carry concealed weapons. To walk across the alley at night, my neighbors lets the dogs out and stands on the porch.
For the most part my kids went to public schools, which smell of elderberries. But my kids are succeeding not because they are white, but because they have WORKED for everything they have. They were not out running the streets since they were seven years old, they were doing their homework, and when they were 13 bugging the local businesses for jobs. If they wanted expensive sneakers they earned the money as they did their own cars and college educations.The black kids in my neighborhood had the same chances my kids had, and if they had good hardworking parents who kept them in line, then those kids are succeeding in life. We also have the best charter school in the US here and those kids will all succeed because their parents care enough to demand excellence from their kids.
[/quote]


Amen.

[Winchester]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305656500' post='2242867']
I'm not going to keep repeating the same things over and over.

I think you all keep trying to argue that it is wrong for white people to be discriminated against. Okay. I agree with you. Stop arguing that.
[b]We agree that it is wrong to discriminate, no matter what color.[/b] There's no point in you continuing to beat a dead horse.

The distinction is, I don't believe AA is discrimination.

Discrimination would mean that you do not get hired because you are white. That's a silly argument to make when the company already has 95% white employees. Makes no sense.

So, please stop arguing that discrimination is wrong, because it's not really addressing or countering any of the points I have made. Thanks guys!
[/quote]
It wouldn't only have to be a negative. If someone was hired in the last 5% because he was hispanic, that would be discrimination. If the law says that 5% must be non-white, then it codifies discrimination based upon race. If a lawsuit filed punishes an employer because he did not hire the proper mix of races, then he has been punished for not discriminating. If an employer decides to increase recruiting in a certain segment of the population (which I feel is the wisest manner of racial discrimination) then he is discriminating.

I don't argue that all discrimination is wrong. I think it would be admirable if an employer targeted poor communities for recruitment in the interests of aiding the poor.

[dUSt]

[quote]...and if they had good hardworking parents who kept them in line, then those kids are succeeding in life...[/quote]
I think this is an important distinction.

People are usually a product of their environment. If the parents came from bad parents born into poverty and un-education, and those parents came from bad parents born into poverty and un-education, then chances are, the problem just passed down through the generations. Your family probably has a history of a better work ethic. Your family history most likely did not involve things like forced segregation, FHA loans that would only allow blacks to purchase houses in specific areas, not being allowed to have the same education in public schools, and Jim Crow laws that forced blacks into a perpetual state of poverty. These are things that have lead to exactly what you describe, and it's going to take more than simply abolishing them for the effects of them to be corrected.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305656500' post='2242867']
I'm not going to keep repeating the same things over and over.

I think you all keep trying to argue that it is wrong for white people to be discriminated against. Okay. I agree with you. Stop arguing that.
[b]We agree that it is wrong to discriminate, no matter what color.[/b] There's no point in you continuing to beat a dead horse.

The distinction is, I don't believe AA is discrimination.

Discrimination would mean that you do not get hired because you are white. That's a silly argument to make when the company already has 95% white employees. Makes no sense.

So, please stop arguing that discrimination is wrong, because it's not really addressing or countering any of the points I have made. Thanks guys!
[/quote]


What about companies which have no white employees? Or only a token white person?

I have found this quite a bit.

and what makes it just, do the percentages have to exactly equal the population?
I find this absurd but for the sake of arguement, lets accept it?

The population of where? If I live in ND where there are very few Blacks at all, does my company have to reflect the racial breakdown of the country?

If I am a company with multiple offices, does the compnay as a whole need to reflect the racial make up of the Country or should each office reflect the make up of the community, or the state,, or of the nation?

What about Hispanics? in the South they were concidered white, they went to white schools and married white people.. why are they advantaged?

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305656500' post='2242867']
The distinction is, I don't believe AA is discrimination.

Discrimination would mean that you do not get hired because you are white. That's a silly argument to make when the company already has 95% white employees. Makes no sense.

So, please stop arguing that discrimination is wrong, because it's not really addressing or countering any of the points I have made. Thanks guys!
[/quote]
If I, a reasonably handsome and intelligent 'white guy', go apply for a job at a place in which 99.9999999999% are 'white'; and I don't get the job because I am not black...that is discrimination.