Affirmative Action

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304536139' post='2236976']
Ok, well where do you draw the line?
[/quote]
I'm sorry. I have nothing whatsoever against you, but I've decided to participate no further in this thread.

[HopefulBride]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304536139' post='2236976']
Ok, well where do you draw the line?
[/quote]

Yes please, where? Because obviously we can't trust people to always choose the right thing so in the interest of society laws are set to make sure the people do the moral thing and I would think that Affirmative Action, anti-abortion, anti-rape laws fall withing that (as far as being permissible)

[Amppax]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1304536247' post='2236979']
I'm sorry. I have nothing whatsoever against you, but I've decided to participate no further in this thread.
[/quote]

Ok, no problem.

[ParadiseFound]

I think it's unhelpful and hypocritical, personally. If we want to build a truly colourblind society then we should stop worrying so much about what race someone is.

[Groo the Wanderer]

I was once told by a former manager that I was his 'token Mexican'. This offended me deeply for two reasons:

1. it made me doubt whether my skills were up to par with everyone else's. I want to be hired for what I know and can contribute, not for my ancestry. The rest of my time there, I felt my career was clouded with doubt...who else tolerated my presence instead of respecting my skillz?

2. I ain't Mexican. I'm half-Puerto Rican



Hiring based on any criteria other than skill, experience, and ability is wrong. Always.

[Amppax]

[quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1304536649' post='2236985']
I think it's unhelpful and hypocritical, personally. If we want to build a truly colourblind society then we should stop worrying so much about what race someone is.
[/quote]


I don't think that the goal[i] is[/i] a colorblind society, per se. I would argue that it is one that accepts and celebrates cultural/racial/etc differences,[i] and [/i]allows everybody to be what they are. The problem with saying that the goal is a colorblind society is that it ignores all cultural differences, which in itself is a form of discrimination. We can't pretend that everybody is the same, we're all different, and to ignore those differences isn't productive.

[ParadiseFound]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304537285' post='2236999']
I don't think that the goal[i] is[/i] a colorblind society, per se. I would argue that it is one that accepts and celebrates cultural/racial/etc differences,[i] and [/i]allows everybody to be what they are. The problem with saying that the goal is a colorblind society is that it ignores all cultural differences, which in itself is a form of discrimination. We can't pretend that everybody is the same, we're all different, and to ignore those differences isn't productive.

[/quote]
Hmmm, I suppose you're right. I think 'colourblind society' was the wrong term for me to use.

I can't get over people spelling 'colour' without the 'u'. It just looks wrong.

[Amppax]

[quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1304537883' post='2237007']
Hmmm, I suppose you're right. I think 'colourblind society' was the wrong term for me to use.

I can't get over people spelling 'colour' without the 'u'. It just looks wrong.
[/quote]

That is understandable, I used to spell it with a 'u' myself, and then had points taken off all through grade school. Trained that out of me real quickly [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/like.gif[/img]

[AudreyGrace]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1304536885' post='2236993']
1. it made me doubt whether my skills were up to par with everyone else's. I want to be hired for what I know and can contribute, not for my ancestry. The rest of my time there, I felt my career was clouded with doubt...who else tolerated my presence instead of respecting my skillz?
[/quote]

I'm not sure how I feel about affirmative action, but I lean more towards the "against it" side, mostly for reasons such as this. I've also seen/heard people take advantage of their race specifically for hiring purposes and the like.

I understand what Amppax and dUSt were saying about how it can help embrace ethnic differences and create equal opportunities for all, but if someone is being called a "token Mexican", their race is being degraded and a white person is being shorted out in the process, too (granted they were actually more qualified for the job). Racism in the professional world is probably still a problem, but I'm not sure affirmative action is a way to erase that.

Honestly, I don't have a strong opinion either way. =/

[cmotherofpirl]

When I was in college they decided to have an affirmative action program to increase minority students. The school [at that point] accepted 200 freshman for nursing but by the end of the sophomore summer only 30 people actually get into the nursing program. Those AA kids never had a chance, since they hadn't had to meet the qualifications that the rest of did just to enter the program. It was unfair to the kids and the program to go thru such shennanigans to meet some made up quota.
Better to improve the elementary, middle-school and high schools so ALL kids have a chance. This however, won't happen in my state because our districts are funded by individual town school districts so if you live in a poor area your education is inferior to begin with, and our state really doesn't have the money willpower or guts to change the system or make up the difference.

When it comes to the job market, race shouldn't even be a factor and not on an application. The best qualified should get the job.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1304536885' post='2236993']
I was once told by a former manager that I was his 'token Mexican'. This offended me deeply.

[/quote]

Yeah, wow is that offensive, I can't count the number of times I've been called Mexican (I'm half Cuban). That is definitely a problem with affirmative action. But its also one of the things that it tries to rectify. Part of the problem with racism is that it is ignorant (ignorant of other cultures), and that is an ignorant statement (not calling your manager racist, i don't know him, but that is a fairly racist statement).

I don't think that a 'token (insert minority here)' system is the answer. And i don't believe that preference should be shown to less qualified applicants. So in that sense I am against affirmative action. But I see nothing wrong with a system where preference is given to a qualified minority, because frankly, most schools (or workplaces, or...anywhere) aren't really very diverse, and this lack of diversity is, I believe, a huge part of racism.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1304536247' post='2236979']
I'm sorry. I have nothing whatsoever against you, but I've decided to participate no further in this thread.
[/quote]
Well then.
I'd still be interested in hearing your rationale at some point.

[rhetoricfemme]

I think it's wrong. Affirmative Action might have it's heart in the right place, but it does nothing to encourage a person to push themselves to be the best they can be. I was thoroughly annoyed back in college when talking to an acquaintance who was majorly bummed when AA was banned in our state. She made some sort of comment about having to start actually studying to move forward now...

I also recall when my best friend got an apology letter from the University of Michigan stating that the only reason she wasn't accepted into the school was because they had met their quota for while female students and needed to include a certain number of students from other ethnic backgrounds as well. While she's actually an MSU girl at heart, she spent all her time in high school busting her butt to be good enough for U of M. She had the GPA, the extracurricular and volunteer experiences that should have made her a shoe-in, but she had to settle for an apology letter five years down the road.

[ParadiseFound]

[quote name='rhetoricfemme' timestamp='1304541711' post='2237047']
I also recall when my best friend got an apology letter from the University of Michigan stating that the only reason she wasn't accepted into the school was because they had met their quota for while female students and needed to include a certain number of students from other ethnic backgrounds as well. While she's actually an MSU girl at heart, she spent all her time in high school busting her butt to be good enough for U of M. She had the GPA, the extracurricular and volunteer experiences that should have made her a shoe-in, but she had to settle for an apology letter five years down the road.
[/quote]
That's really messed up, if you ask me. Sorry for your friend.

[Guest]

Dude black people couldn't even use the same bathroom or drink out of the same waterfountian as whites. They deserve any small benefits they may get now. That being said there are poor people of every race that are treated like croutons. But black people were singled out bad in this country.