havok579257 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305444782' post='2241778'] how many roads? How big a military? what other things? This is too vague tobe meaningful. How much can they teke before it is unjust? 10%, 20%, 80%, 100%.... if roads and defence require that they confiscate (wait ya'll dont like that word)tax 100% to provide for them. would that be okay? How much is okay? [/quote] what is the costs to maintain roads? what is the cost to maintain military power pre sept. 11? what is the cost to help children/adults who would die(literally die, not figuratively die) without government assistance and who can not be helped by private charity? what is the cost to provide fire services for american's since fire service is not something that is payable? what is the cost to provide emergency services like ambulnaces when someone is unable to pay the bill? the ambulance service charges patients for services but lots of patients don't have money to pay the bill and its against the law to refuse a dying person care as it should be. these are just some of the services the government does and should provide. unless you really want to say that the government should not provide life saving services for a man who is gunned down but has no money to pay for the bill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 If a man were dying of blood loss, would it be moral to take people with a matching blood type and, under penalty of law, require them to donate blood? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305465317' post='2241812'] what is the costs to maintain roads? what is the cost to maintain military power pre sept. 11? what is the cost to help children/adults who would die(literally die, not figuratively die) without government assistance and who can not be helped by private charity? what is the cost to provide fire services for american's since fire service is not something that is payable? what is the cost to provide emergency services like ambulnaces when someone is unable to pay the bill? the ambulance service charges patients for services but lots of patients don't have money to pay the bill and its against the law to refuse a dying person care as it should be. these are just some of the services the government does and should provide. unless you really want to say that the government should not provide life saving services for a man who is gunned down but has no money to pay for the bill. [/quote] You didn't answer the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 The answer is: There is no limit to the percentage of your money to which the government is entitled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305466929' post='2241816'] If a man were dying of blood loss, would it be moral to take people with a matching blood type and, under penalty of law, require them to donate blood? [/quote] does the government do this now? yet here you are going to an extreme to try and prove your right. oh wait, your under the assumption that soon this will happen in america some day, right? i think i remember you saying your a firefighter. so it is immoral for you to show up on scene of a fire and see someone dying from burn injuries and REFUSE to do anything to save their life. it is also illegal and IT should be. no way, no how should you ever be legally allowed to show up on scene of a fire and refuse care to a critical patient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305490188' post='2241921'] does the government do this now? yet here you are going to an extreme to try and prove your right. oh wait, your under the assumption that soon this will happen in america some day, right?[/quote] It's not really an extreme. Donating a pint of blood doesn't harm people, and it could save a life. Currently, you argue that under penalty of law, we must contribute money to save lives. Donating the blood will save a life. Is it okay to require people under penalty of law to part with something to aid another? [quote]i think i remember you saying your a firefighter. so it is immoral for you to show up on scene of a fire and see someone dying from burn injuries and REFUSE to do anything to save their life. it is also illegal and IT should be. no way, no how should you ever be legally allowed to show up on scene of a fire and refuse care to a critical patient. [/quote] It's my job and I get paid to do it. I am not under penalty of law. I can quit and I will not be jailed. It might well be immoral to withhold care. I think it's immoral to let someone die when they can be easily helped. That's a far cry from saying we may coerce people to help. I have chosen to be a firefighter, so I have willingly taken on the burdens associated with it, including serious repercussions for negligence and a duty to act even off duty. Are you arguing that people seeking gainful employment take on a burden to provide for those the government deems in need of help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 Havok you still didn't answer the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305497750' post='2241986'] Havok you still didn't answer the question. [/quote] what question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305497984' post='2241987'] what question? [/quote] How much can they take before it is unjust? 10%, 20%, 80%, 100%.... if roads and defence require that they confiscate (wait ya'll dont like that word) tax 100% to provide for them, would that be okay? How much is okay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305490676' post='2241925'] It's not really an extreme. Donating a pint of blood doesn't harm people, and it could save a life. Currently, you argue that under penalty of law, we must contribute money to save lives. Donating the blood will save a life. Is it okay to require people under penalty of law to part with something to aid another? It's my job and I get paid to do it. I am not under penalty of law. I can quit and I will not be jailed. It might well be immoral to withhold care. I think it's immoral to let someone die when they can be easily helped. That's a far cry from saying we may coerce people to help. I have chosen to be a firefighter, so I have willingly taken on the burdens associated with it, including serious repercussions for negligence and a duty to act even off duty. Are you arguing that people seeking gainful employment take on a burden to provide for those the government deems in need of help? [/quote] are you saying its ok under penalty of law to force someone to donate a pint of blood? i argue that your a firefighter. if you on the job refuse care to someone and they die you will by force of law be sent to jail. its set in stone. if you refuse care on the job and someone dies from it, you will be sentenced to jail time. so by being a firefighter, why are you not upset that by force of law you are required to help someone the government chooses? its not different. in your job you are required under law to help someone. as a citizen of the united states you are required by law to help someone. have you also not choosen to be a united states citizen? you know what the rules in the country are, you know what the laws are, you know what is expected of you as a citizen. you are an adult. you can choose to live in whatever country you choose and move out of ones you disagree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305499456' post='2241995'] are you saying its ok under penalty of law to force someone to donate a pint of blood? i argue that your a firefighter. if you on the job refuse care to someone and they die you will by force of law be sent to jail. its set in stone. if you refuse care on the job and someone dies from it, you will be sentenced to jail time. so by being a firefighter, why are you not upset that by force of law you are required to help someone the government chooses? its not different. in your job you are required under law to help someone. as a citizen of the united states you are required by law to help someone. have you also not choosen to be a united states citizen? you know what the rules in the country are, you know what the laws are, you know what is expected of you as a citizen. you are an adult. you can choose to live in whatever country you choose and move out of ones you disagree with. [/quote] Actually that is not true where he lives, if he refuses to render aid he will be fired, and will be subject only to the same penalties as any other person who fails to render aid. Are you seriously arguing that if the State is unjust you can just leave it and move somewhere more just? Are you really arguing that? Why does one have to leave the land of thier birth, thier home becuase the state is unjust? Can't one just revolt and put the heads of those who would oppress him on pikes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305498108' post='2241989'] How much can they take before it is unjust? 10%, 20%, 80%, 100%.... if roads and defence require that they confiscate (wait ya'll dont like that word) tax 100% to provide for them, would that be okay? How much is okay? [/quote] i must have missed the part when the founding fathers established this country and said the government is not allowed to tax(confiscate) ANY money from its citizens. i think the government has a right to tax its citizens. this country was founded with that notion. percent don't work for me. because the government can take 10% from a poor man and he is unable to survive and that would be unjust. although taking 10% from a billionaire will not force him to be unable to survive. so percents don't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305499456' post='2241995'] are you saying its ok under penalty of law to force someone to donate a pint of blood?[/quote] Are you afraid to answer that question? It's a simple 'yes' or 'no'. [quote]i argue that your a firefighter. if you on the job refuse care to someone and they die you will by force of law be sent to jail. its set in stone. if you refuse care on the job and someone dies from it, you will be sentenced to jail time. so by being a firefighter, why are you not upset that by force of law you are required to help someone the government chooses? its not different. in your job you are required under law to help someone. as a citizen of the united states you are required by law to help someone.[/quote] If I am sent to jail, I chose to be a firefighter. I already answered this question. Are you arguing that ordinary people should face prison time for not donating money to government enforced charity? Yes or no? [quote]have you also not choosen to be a united states citizen? you know what the rules in the country are, you know what the laws are, you know what is expected of you as a citizen. you are an adult. you can choose to live in whatever country you choose and move out of ones you disagree with. [/quote] So any law that is passed, I must follow. This is your argument? Are you intentionally arguing that the government issues us our rights? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305500030' post='2241999'] i must have missed the part when the founding fathers established this country and said the government is not allowed to tax(confiscate) ANY money from its citizens. i think the government has a right to tax its citizens. this country was founded with that notion. percent don't work for me. because the government can take 10% from a poor man and he is unable to survive and that would be unjust. although taking 10% from a billionaire will not force him to be unable to survive. so percents don't work. [/quote] THe founding fathers revolted over what amounted to a 3% sales tax of some, not all, goods. they probably are not the best example. I never said the government had no taxing powers, in fact I said they did, I asked you how much? If I tax 100% that pretty much effects everyone the same... can the government take everything? If I understand your post correctly... you saying the limit is survival, the government can take until you meet a minimum of subsistance. Is that correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havok579257 Posted May 15, 2011 Share Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305499890' post='2241998'] Actually that is not true where he lives, if he refuses to render aid he will be fired, and will be subject only to the same penalties as any other person who fails to render aid. Are you seriously arguing that if the State is unjust you can just leave it and move somewhere more just? Are you really arguing that? Why does one have to leave the land of thier birth, thier home becuase the state is unjust? Can't one just revolt and put the heads of those who would oppress him on pikes? [/quote] i would love to see what state says an emt on the job can refuse to giving someone life saving care and he will not go to jail for negalgence that resulted in someone's death. i am arguing the state is not unjust except in your eyes and people of similar mindset. the right to tax its citizen was put into effect by the founding fathers. if you don't like the government taking any taxes from you and think any taxes from you, you are free to leave. putting heads on pikes last i checked is not a catholic teaching. also i can in no way see if some americans revolted against the government today the pope and the holy see would consider it a just war. so unless your revolt is covered under just war theory, then it is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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