Affirmative Action

[havok579257]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305400544' post='2241468']
But havok,you acknowledge the virtually unlimited authority of the state, thus you acknowledge that they have the authority to manage these things as they see fit.

Personally I am opposed to state sanctioned gay marraige, becuase I am opposed to state sanctioned marriage. The state has no buisness inthe marriage contract at all, and should get out of it. I oppose allstate sanctioned marriage.
[/quote]


i have acknowledged virtually unlimited authority of the state? really? cause i would like to see where i ever said that. once agian like with most debates online, everybody reads one idea someone has and prejudges them. since i support the government helping those who would otherwise die without their assistance and since i support taxation for certain services then i must support unlimited authority of the state, right? stop prejudging someone off of one or two ideas. never once have i support unlimited state authroity and i have said this in other threads.

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305401084' post='2241476']
i guess i should never have expected a mature answer from you. i hoped, but that hope was in vain obviously.
[/quote]
[img]http://www.jontanis.com/gallery/d/5039-1/trollface.jpg[/img]

[Amppax]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305401335' post='2241481']
[img]http://www.jontanis.com/gallery/d/5039-1/trollface.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

Totally proves your point, you are so right, can't believe i didn't think of this.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1305401646' post='2241483']
Totally proves your point, you are so right, can't believe i didn't think of this.
[/quote]
Stay with me, bro.

Also, your mask is perfectly fine.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305401333' post='2241480']
i have acknowledged virtually unlimited authority of the state? really? cause i would like to see where i ever said that. once agian like with most debates online, everybody reads one idea someone has and prejudges them. since i support the government helping those who would otherwise die without their assistance and since i support taxation for certain services then i must support unlimited authority of the state, right? stop prejudging someone off of one or two ideas. never once have i support unlimited state authroity and i have said this in other threads.
[/quote]


You support the unlimited right to tax, which means in effect that they have unlimited power over property. If they have unlimited power over property thenthey have unlimited power, becuase they can legitimently take whatever they will from you for noncompliance.

That is why the queation Winchester asked you about the limit of the right to tax was so important. You cannot give a limit, the limit, according to your own words is whatever is necessary,and that that is okay becuase the money is the governments, so, in fact, all property is
the govs. and you own nothing at all,everything you have is given by the state.

That seems like pretty unlimited authority.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Don John of Austria

[havok579257]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305401961' post='2241486']
You support the unlimited right to tax, which means in effect that they have unlimited power over property. If they have unlimited power over property thenthey have unlimited power, becuase they can legitimently take whatever they will from you for noncompliance.

That is why the queation Winchester asked you about the limit of the right to tax was so important. You cannot give a limit, the limit, according to your own words is whatever is necessary,and that that is okay becuase the money is the governments, so, in fact, all property is
the govs. and you own nothing at all,everything you have is given by the state.

That seems like pretty unlimited authority.
[/quote]


i never said i support the unlimited right to tax. but hey, why bother reading actual posts when you can just make things up. that's so much cooler.

i didn't give a limit because as i said, i never bothered to calcutae it. although this goes back to that reading thing. its not cool to read posts, so don't worry about it.

[Winchester]

So... whatever costs the government incurs, it may tax in order to pay them.

Sounds unlimited.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305403448' post='2241501']
So... whatever costs the government incurs, it may tax in order to pay them.

Sounds unlimited.
[/quote]


i never said whatever costs the government incurs. reading posts are obvioulsy not important in this debate.

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305404629' post='2241509']
i never said whatever costs the government incurs. reading posts are obvioulsy not important in this debate.
[/quote]
You said that you could not set a limit because you didn't know the costs. That means you set costs as the limit, which means the government may set taxes at whatever level it can recoup its costs. Your unwillingness to take a stand for private citizens has caused you to support unlimited state power. You're not aware of if because you're not thinking critically. I read your post just fine and I went to the logical conclusion of your statement. Maybe you should take more time to think about what you believe before you post.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305418149' post='2241584']
You said that you could not set a limit because you didn't know the costs. That means you set costs as the limit, which means the government may set taxes at whatever level it can recoup its costs. Your unwillingness to take a stand for private citizens has caused you to support unlimited state power. You're not aware of if because you're not thinking critically. I read your post just fine and I went to the logical conclusion of your statement. Maybe you should take more time to think about what you believe before you post.
[/quote]


i said i never sat down and thought about how much it costs for the government to provide basic things. i said the government has the right to tax citizens on certain things but definatly not all things. which means that i am not for unlimited government taxation. to then jump to the conclusion that because i haven;t taken the time to go in depth on this means i support unlimited government taxation is assanine. just like most of your arguements. you consistantly over exaggerate things in hopes that you try and make an opposing arguement so far in left field that no one could agree with it. although that is never the arguement that was initially made. this shows that you lack the ability to actually debate with someone on their arguements they have said. you need to over exaggerate everything because your unable to properly debate the original arguement. keep over exaggerating things then. i find it amusing.

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305428148' post='2241640']
i said i never sat down and thought about how much it costs for the government to provide basic things. i said the government has the right to tax citizens on certain things but definatly not all things. which means that i am not for unlimited government taxation. to then jump to the conclusion that because i haven;t taken the time to go in depth on this means i support unlimited government taxation is assanine. just like most of your arguements. you consistantly over exaggerate things in hopes that you try and make an opposing arguement so far in left field that no one could agree with it. although that is never the arguement that was initially made. this shows that you lack the ability to actually debate with someone on their arguements they have said. you need to over exaggerate everything because your unable to properly debate the original arguement. keep over exaggerating things then. i find it amusing.
[/quote]
Your poor expression is not my problem. We can only go by what you say, and that is what we've done. It's your job then to clarify. You choose to throw a hissy fit, which I find entertaining.

I do sometimes make strange statements for the purpose of outrage. In this case, I'm merely pointing out that you're unwilling to pick a limit on the government's demands on our money. Your criteria is the money needed, whereas mine is the money they may rightly take. Yours is unlimited because of your criteria, which you've admitted relies upon how much the government needs. I don't need to evaluate how much money the government needs to accomplish its goals because I have decided the government must find a way to operate with the amount of money it can get from just taxation.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305429076' post='2241652']
Your poor expression is not my problem. We can only go by what you say, and that is what we've done. It's your job then to clarify. You choose to throw a hissy fit, which I find entertaining.

I do sometimes make strange statements for the purpose of outrage. In this case, I'm merely pointing out that you're unwilling to pick a limit on the government's demands on our money. Your criteria is the money needed, whereas mine is the money they may rightly take. Yours is unlimited because of your criteria, which you've admitted relies upon how much the government needs. I don't need to evaluate how much money the government needs to accomplish its goals because I have decided the government must find a way to operate with the amount of money it can get from just taxation.
[/quote]


actually you did not use just what i said since i never said i am for unlimited government taxation.

i have said the government has a right to tax its citizen to provide for basic things such as roads, military and other things.

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305430952' post='2241708']
actually you did not use just what i said since i never said i am for unlimited government taxation.

i have said the government has a right to tax its citizen to provide for basic things such as roads, military and other things.
[/quote]
You based that limit on the amount of money needed.

"and other things" is a large, undefined category.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305403238' post='2241496']
i never said i support the unlimited right to tax. but hey, why bother reading actual posts when you can just make things up. that's so much cooler.

i didn't give a limit because as i said, i never bothered to calcutae it. although this goes back to that reading thing. its not cool to read posts, so don't worry about it.
[/quote]


I read it, you said: the limit on taxation? i can't give a number since i have never added up how much it costs to do things.

How is one supposed to interpret that other than.... however much is necessary to do things?

However much is necessay , is unlimited.

If that is not what you wanted to say, okay, but that is what you said.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305430952' post='2241708']
actually you did not use just what i said since i never said i am for unlimited government taxation.

i have said the government has a right to tax its citizen to provide for basic things such as roads, military and other things.
[/quote]


how many roads? How big a military? what other things? This is too vague tobe meaningful. How much can they teke before it is unjust?

10%, 20%, 80%, 100%.... if roads and defence require that they confiscate (wait ya'll dont like that word)tax 100% to provide for them. would that be okay?


How much is okay?