Affirmative Action

[dUSt]

This thread is racist.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305291521' post='2240806']
so your with an organization getting "FREE" money but not having to follow the rules of the person giving the "FREE" money? take breaks are "FREE" money given by the government. the government does not have to give people "FREE" money. they choose to. no where in the bill of rights or constitution does it you are entitles to tax breaks.

i believe if the government is going to give you "FREE" money, then they have a right to set up some basic standards for your business. if you don't want the government having any say in your business, then don't take the "FREE" money. simple as that.
[/quote]

No, I'm for an organization being on a competitively equal footing. There's nothing "FREE" about earning money by investing your own time and money to find a way to serve the people around you in a way that they value enough to give you their money. If you earn money that way, that is justice. That the government *could* take it, but doesn't in no way lessens the fact that it is *your* money. Similarly, if a playground bully takes your lunch and eats it, they ate *your* lunch. Government has no money of its own. If it gives money, it is taking it from someone else. In the case of the government taking out loans to pay for its activities, it is taking the money from your children. I'm not arguing that this is never justified, some forms of education spending may be justified if the education is truly worth more than the present and future costs.

Since everything you said relies on the money being "FREE" and it demonstrably *isn't* free (nor is it the government's), I'll accept your complete renunciation of your previous statement now.

Peace,
Drigan

[Winchester]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305306861' post='2240904']
This thread is racist.
[/quote]
Your face is a thread.

[havok579257]

[quote name='MagiDragon' timestamp='1305311825' post='2240941']
No, I'm for an organization being on a competitively equal footing. There's nothing "FREE" about earning money by investing your own time and money to find a way to serve the people around you in a way that they value enough to give you their money. If you earn money that way, that is justice. That the government *could* take it, but doesn't in no way lessens the fact that it is *your* money. Similarly, if a playground bully takes your lunch and eats it, they ate *your* lunch. Government has no money of its own. If it gives money, it is taking it from someone else. In the case of the government taking out loans to pay for its activities, it is taking the money from your children. I'm not arguing that this is never justified, some forms of education spending may be justified if the education is truly worth more than the present and future costs.

Since everything you said relies on the money being "FREE" and it demonstrably *isn't* free (nor is it the government's), I'll accept your complete renunciation of your previous statement now.

Peace,
Drigan
[/quote]


living in any civilized country you need to understand that not all the money you earn is your for the keep. just by the fact that you live in america means not all the money you make is yours. some of it is and does belong to the government. the reason is because you use many services provided for you by the government. this involved money. things as basic as roads. the government not only provides roads for you and provides for their improvement but they also make it so roads can not be privately owned. so, not all the money you earn is your money. some of it is the governments to keep since you are living/working/traveling on their land.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305306130' post='2240900']
Social engineering by money confiscation.

Or you could actually bite he bullet, get a group together on a private basis and boycott businesses that don't allow handicap access.

But that would be work. It's easier to use government power. So let's do that.
[/quote]


it being hard has no bearing on anything. the government who is allowing you to receive tax breaks has every right to demand you conform to what they deem acceptable. if you don't like it and don't want the government having any say in your business, then don't complain about government intrusion one minute but the next demand that they intrude enough to give you tax breaks and more money. can't have it both ways.

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305346286' post='2241235']
it being hard has no bearing on anything. the government who is allowing you to receive tax breaks has every right to demand you conform to what they deem acceptable. if you don't like it and don't want the government having any say in your business, then don't complain about government intrusion one minute but the next demand that they intrude enough to give you tax breaks and more money. can't have it both ways.
[/quote]
Yes I can. It's my money and the government's authority is not unlimited. That you worship the State as the ultimate rule of justice (which is clearly unconstitutional, among other things) makes you a slave. Not me.

Also, individual effort being hard is the exact reason you want the government running things. You, like all others who beg for authoritarianism, are lazy. You don't want to get all messy attempting to force me to act a certain way. You lack the courage to coerce me yourself.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Winchester

[havok579257]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305378010' post='2241324']
Yes I can. It's my money and the government's authority is not unlimited. That you worship the State as the ultimate rule of justice (which is clearly unconstitutional, among other things) makes you a slave. Not me.

Also, individual effort being hard is the exact reason you want the government running things. You, like all others who beg for authoritarianism, are lazy. You don't want to get all messy attempting to force me to act a certain way. You lack the courage to coerce me yourself.
[/quote]


i don't worship the state. i only worship God the father and out savior Jesus Christ.

i never said the government's authority is unlimited. quite the opposite in fact. although i believe there are certain instances the government does/needs to have authority over its people and this is one of them.

actually its not all your money. by working here, some of your money is the governments money. that's the way it is. the government has every right and in fact a responsibility to take some of your money to use for the benefit of the country. like taking money for road improvements. roads so you have a way to work. they use the money so they can own the road and not have someone privately own the roads and then charge millions of dollrs to drive on their roads. or the US tresury so that you can get YOUR money.

calling me a coward because i don't agree with your point of view. that's original. that's also so productive to a converstaion.

[Winchester]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305380954' post='2241332']
i don't worship the state. i only worship God the father and out savior Jesus Christ.

i never said the government's authority is unlimited. quite the opposite in fact. although i believe there are certain instances the government does/needs to have authority over its people and this is one of them.

actually its not all your money. by working here, some of your money is the governments money. that's the way it is. the government has every right and in fact a responsibility to take some of your money to use for the benefit of the country. like taking money for road improvements. roads so you have a way to work. they use the money so they can own the road and not have someone privately own the roads and then charge millions of dollrs to drive on their roads. or the US tresury so that you can get YOUR money.

calling me a coward because i don't agree with your point of view. that's original. that's also so productive to a converstaion.
[/quote]
Then state the limit of taxation. Give me the percentage which government may justly take. Everything you've argued says that what the government decides to take, it is justified in taking and that if it reduces that amount, it may then tell people what to do. You have given no limits to what the government may take or why they may take it.

Democratic 'governments' derive their authority from man and rely upon consent. Whatever consent I withdraw, I am justified in withdrawing it and am subject then only to natural law. You have no right to imprison me for non-payment of arbitrary taxation, but the government has that power.

I'm calling you a coward because you want the government to put the gun to my head that you won't take up yourself to divest me of my money as you see fit. Sending someone to shake me down instead of doing it yourself is a lack of courage.

Your final scenario about someone charging millions to use a private toll road is asinine. There are private toll roads currently in operation and they charge a reasonable amount. Your fear of non-State blessed private action is unfounded.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Winchester

[MithLuin]

Winchester wants someone to put a gun to his head.

Any volunteers?

And to bring the thread back on topic, should it be a white guy or a black guy and does that matter?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305380954' post='2241332']
i don't worship the state. i only worship God the father and out savior Jesus Christ.

i never said the government's authority is unlimited. quite the opposite in fact. although i believe there are certain instances the government does/needs to have authority over its people and this is one of them.

actually its not all your money. by working here, some of your money is the governments money. that's the way it is. the government has every right and in fact a responsibility to take some of your money to use for the benefit of the country. like taking money for road improvements. roads so you have a way to work. they use the money so they can own the road and not have someone privately own the roads and then charge millions of dollrs to drive on their roads. or the US tresury so that you can get YOUR money.

calling me a coward because i don't agree with your point of view. that's original. that's also so productive to a converstaion.
[/quote]


I saidthis above but somehow it was missed.

Governments have a right to levy reasonable taxes, that does not mean that it is not the citizens money being taken under threat of force.

Governments have a right to levy troops in time of emergency as well, that does not mean that the men they levy are not free, that they be,long tothe state.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305391531' post='2241365']
I saidthis above but somehow it was missed.

Governments have a right to levy reasonable taxes, that does not mean that it is not the citizens money being taken under threat of force.

Governments have a right to levy troops in time of emergency as well, that does not mean that the men they levy are not free, that they be,long tothe state.
[/quote]
Neither of those applies to a democratic government.

[Nihil Obstat]

[img]http://www.vanguardist.org/uploads/hoppe_democracy.jpg[/img]

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1304528254' post='2236894']I think it is wrong, however I also believe that employers have the right to hire or fire by any criteria they choose.[/quote][quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1304531983' post='2236932']Racism is morally wrong. That doesn't make it right to legislate affirmative action.[/quote]Like stealing is morally wrong, but we don't want that government stopping people from stealing, who cares about laws... lets just have "morals".

Anarcho-capitalist...

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305391604' post='2241367']
Neither of those applies to a democratic government.
[/quote]


Well you a have known myviews on democracy for a very long time. But I still think that in a crisis when the survival of the communityas a whole is in danger the communities leaders have the right to levy men to protect and save the community. I would argue that inthis case, thier authority does not stem fromthe democratic source, but the same source as all authority in natural law.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1305393816' post='2241387']
Like stealing is morally wrong, but we don't want that government stopping people from stealing, who cares about laws... lets just have "morals".
[/quote]
Not equivalent.