Don John of Austria Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1305054524' post='2239730'] Again, we're not really arguing for affirmative action so much as arguing against the things that it sets out to rectify. *Edit: sorry changed my mind about what to post. [/quote] I don't think it needs to be addressed by the state at all. On a personal level it should be addressed via the Church and good old fashion Christian witness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 [quote name='MagiDragon' timestamp='1305055928' post='2239739'] Today, there is fear of going to a black doctor for fear of them being 'affirmative action' candidates. On the other hand, if there was no affirmative action, and there was a black doctor, you could have just as much confidence as with any other doctor. In an even more extreme situation, if you know that there *is* bigotry against a particular 'type' then you should seek out the members of that group because you know that they are likely to be *better* than average. [/quote] Well, i'm going to stick by everything i've previously said: there are definitely some problems with affirmative action, but in my view, it seems like one of the few active things that are at least trying to address racial equality (by this i'm referring to the fact that minorities are as a whole disadvantaged to begin with in our society). Believe me, I really, really don't like the idea of affirmative action, but it seems to me to be better then nothing. Again, if anyone has a better solution I am more than willing to listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1305057013' post='2239750'] Well, i'm going to stick by everything i've previously said: there are definitely some problems with affirmative action, but in my view, it seems like one of the few active things that are at least trying to address racial equality (by this i'm referring to the fact that minorities are as a whole disadvantaged to begin with in our society). Believe me, I really, really don't like the idea of affirmative action, but it seems to me to be better then nothing. Again, if anyone has a better solution I am more than willing to listen. [/quote] So again I ask. Why does this need to be adressed at all? Edited May 10, 2011 by Don John of Austria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305057219' post='2239753'] So again I ask. Why does this need to be adressed at all? [/quote] You don't think that some segments of our population are disadvantaged by their race? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1305057605' post='2239760'] You don't think that some segments of our population are disadvantaged by their race? [/quote] I do not think that the states role is to fix all the problems of our population. The state should have never told people where they could live, or work, or eat, or go potty, suchis not the states role. That the state once violated its role is not an excuse to violate it now. I have been discriminated against for being white, right up to and including people threatening my life. I have been passed over for promotion and lost jobs to less qualified people becuase I amwhite and male.... so what, it is not the states role to chnge those peoples hearts. Public institutions and corporations should be required by law to be race and gender nuetral. Private persons should be allowed to dispose of their own property and jobs in anyway they see fit. Racism will never be fixed by government fiat.And you still didn't answer the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305058325' post='2239769'] I do not think that the states role is to fix all the problems of our population. The state should have never told people where they could live, or work, or eat, or go potty, suchis not the states role. That the state once violated its role is not an excuse to violate it now. I have been discriminated against for being white, right up to and including people threatening my life. I have been passed over for promotion and lost jobs to less qualified people becuase I amwhite and male.... so what, it is not the states role to chnge those peoples hearts. Public institutions and corporations should be required by law to be race and gender nuetral. Private persons should be allowed to dispose of their own property and jobs in anyway they see fit. Racism will never be fixed by government fiat. And you still didn't answer the question. [/quote] Well i really don't think that i could honestly give a good answer to your question right now... I'm going to have to get back to you on it when i can better formulate my ideas. Sorry, it's exam week. *Edit: sorry if that seems like a copout, it's not, i just really don't have the time or the energy to fully articulate my view of why the problem needs to be solved, as I imagine it will take much explaining and writing, and would have to cover a lot more then the few simple lines that i have time for right now. Edited May 10, 2011 by Amppax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 The simple answer would be that I think that it is not right to condone leaving a problem unsolved, and condoning injustice... but my full answer would have to be much more in depth then this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1305059160' post='2239777'] The simple answer would be that I think that it is not right to condone leaving a problem unsolved, and condoning injustice... but my full answer would have to be much more in depth then this. [/quote] whose condoning anything? Lack of approval does not mean that the state should try and fix it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305060186' post='2239786'] whose condoning anything? Lack of approval does not mean that the state should try and fix it. [/quote] By leaving the problem unfixed, you are naturally condoning it by your lack of action in fixing the injustice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1305060821' post='2239790'] By leaving the problem unfixed, you are naturally condoning it by your lack of action in fixing the injustice. [/quote] Bull. What you are talking about, taken to its logical conclusion is total state domination. The liberal-Democratic ideal that the state can fix everything has been tried, and has failed. That aside the attempt to do so is in itself evil and violates the basic human dignaty of those within said state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305061196' post='2239792'] Bull. What you are talking about, taken to its logical conclusion is total state domination. The liberal-Democratic ideal that the state can fix everything has been tried, and has failed. That aside the attempt to do so is in itself evil and violates the basic human dignaty of those within said state. [/quote] Ok, so your contention is that the state shouldn't fix the problem. fine. So how does it get fixed? Or do you think that we should just tolerate injustice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1305061498' post='2239793'] Ok, so your contention is that the state shouldn't fix the problem. fine. So how does it get fixed? Or do you think that we should just tolerate injustice? [/quote] I already answered that through the Church and Christain witness. I reject the notion that lack of an equality of outcome is in itself unjust. If there is an unjust cause that should be treated as above? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305061196' post='2239792'] What you are talking about, taken to its logical conclusion is total state domination. The liberal-Democratic ideal that the state can fix everything has been tried, and has failed. That aside the attempt to do so is in itself evil and violates the basic human dignaty of those within said state. [/quote] No, [b]that [/b]is bs. I'm not advocating total state domination. All i'm trying to say is that we, as a society, should address injustice. If addressing injustice involves the state, fine, if it doesn't fine. If we don't address the injustice in our society, then we aren't doing something right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted May 10, 2011 Author Share Posted May 10, 2011 [quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305062043' post='2239798'] I already answered that through the Church and Christain witness. I reject the notion that lack of an equality of outcome is in itself unjust. If there is an unjust cause that should be treated as above? [/quote] i'm not arguing for equality of outcome, i'm arguing for equality of opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1305062309' post='2239803'] i'm not arguing for equality of outcome, i'm arguing for equality of opportunity. [/quote] But your evidence is all based on outcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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