Affirmative Action

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304992185' post='2239408']
Sorry didn't mean to offend.

Yes there is a correlation with economics, i would probably argue that it is more important. and yes there are more poor white people. But look at the percentage in poverty per race (i don't remember the figures, i think dUSt posted them earlier). A much greater number of minorities are poor (espec. african american and latino), and a lot of the poverty is related back to education (an unfortunate cycle)...which affirmative action tries to rectify. I agree, its not perfect, and when i hear a better solution, i'm going to be all for it.
[/quote]


a higher proportion of minorities are poor, not higher numbers. Of course that is relative to the area, should we have poor white AA in the mountians of Kentucky and WV?

Taking inferior canadites becuase of their race is a recipe for disasterthe best applicant should always be taken regardless of race or gender.

[dUSt]

If I had to choose between a black man and Don John continuing to post at phatmass I would choose Don John.

[Don John of Austria]

I love you to dust.


Now that all that mushy stuff is out of the way.

[infinitelord1]

where is that havok guy when you need him? i would like to see what he has to say about all this.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304985059' post='2239335']
because some schools really smell of elderberries (and these schools happen to be predominantly minority) and its not really the fault of students who are subjected to awful teaching that they don't do as well as the students who come from much better schools. Now how does this justify Affirmative Action? it doesn't really, but i'm still waiting for someone to propose something that will help address the problems. Affirmative Action seems to me to at least do something. I feel it is better then nothing.
[/quote]
It couldn't possibly be an internal cause. You know, like parenting and parental choices.

[MithLuin]

Sure, there's lots of family issues that make it difficult to educate a child. The majority of my students come from broken homes and dysfunctional families. Not all, of course. Some of the ones with stable, two-parent homes are no better students than the ones who are temporarily homeless (well, living in a car/abandoned building) from time to time. But it's obviously an extra challenge in life when you're dealing with all of that...drama.

The school system can't fix the family situations, though, so education efforts are aimed at what we [i]can[/i] fix - the culture of the school, the quality of the teachers, the level of work, resources to aid the kids, etc.

My argument is that unlike poor immigrant families, the situation of African-Americans is unique, in that society refused to accept them for about a century. Didn't matter how much effort they put in or how hard they worked, doors were slammed in their faces and they had to succeed in a kind of alternative side culture. Some people got through that with very little resentment or rancor.

I was talking to a gentleman with a high school aged grandson who grew up in North Carolina. He told stories about getting rides into town to go to school (or tutoring?) with a neighboring white girl who had a car. Obviously, it would have been [i]scandalous[/i] for him to ride with her, so that's not what was offered - he was allowed to stand on the back bumper and catch a ride that way. Didn't matter - he took it, and got where he needed to go. That's the attitude of picking yourself up by your bootstraps that we expect of the American dream, and he was able to make something of himself and was raised to be a decent man and all of that.

But there's still plenty of white families that would be nervous to let their daughter give rides to a black guy. Not everyone, and people are more subtle about it these days, but to suggest that a [i]qualified[/i] black man has a fair chance at any job is a bit naive, don't you think?

For instance, I once had a coworker who caught the bus, and so had to walk through a neighborhood between the bus stop and work. It was a white suburban neighborhood, and here was this young black man walking down the street caring a backpack. They called the cops on him. He's not a teenager, he's not doing anything wrong - he wasn't loitering or peering in windows or anything like that. He was just...black.

With that much latent distrust in day to day interactions, it's bound to affect hiring decisions. And black people know that they have to 'act white' at work if they want to have a professional job in a mostly-white office building. That's just how things are.

Nondiscrimination laws are probably good enough to deal with the situation, but then...you have to go to all the trouble of suing when you are treated unfairly and go to court. It's better to nip some of that in the bud by just flat-out making it clear that that isn't the way to do business.

[Papist]

Why should the under-qualified son of a black doctor displace the qualified daughter of a Vietnamese boat refugee?

[Winchester]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1305031897' post='2239608']


My argument is that unlike poor immigrant families, the situation of [s]African-Americans[/s] Black people is unique, in that society refused to accept them for about a century. Didn't matter how much effort they put in or how hard they worked, doors were slammed in their faces and they had to succeed in a kind of alternative side culture. Some people got through that with very little resentment or rancor.

[/quote]
You need to read Thomas Sowell.

[MithLuin]

I read the first link, not the next two.

The reason why I specified African American rather than black in that passage was in an attempt to differentiate the experiences of recent African and Caribbean immigrants from the experiences of blacks in this country since the mid-19th century. I agree that that wasn't very clear, so I apologize for that.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1305031897' post='2239608']
Sure, there's lots of family issues that make it difficult to educate a child. The majority of my students come from broken homes and dysfunctional families. Not all, of course. Some of the ones with stable, two-parent homes are no better students than the ones who are temporarily homeless (well, living in a car/abandoned building) from time to time. But it's obviously an extra challenge in life when you're dealing with all of that...drama.

The school system can't fix the family situations, though, so education efforts are aimed at what we [i]can[/i] fix - the culture of the school, the quality of the teachers, the level of work, resources to aid the kids, etc.

My argument is that unlike poor immigrant families, the situation of African-Americans is unique, in that society refused to accept them for about a century. Didn't matter how much effort they put in or how hard they worked, doors were slammed in their faces and they had to succeed in a kind of alternative side culture. Some people got through that with very little resentment or rancor.

I was talking to a gentleman with a high school aged grandson who grew up in North Carolina. He told stories about getting rides into town to go to school (or tutoring?) with a neighboring white girl who had a car. Obviously, it would have been [i]scandalous[/i] for him to ride with her, so that's not what was offered - he was allowed to stand on the back bumper and catch a ride that way. Didn't matter - he took it, and got where he needed to go. That's the attitude of picking yourself up by your bootstraps that we expect of the American dream, and he was able to make something of himself and was raised to be a decent man and all of that.

But there's still plenty of white families that would be nervous to let their daughter give rides to a black guy. Not everyone, and people are more subtle about it these days, but to suggest that a [i]qualified[/i] black man has a fair chance at any job is a bit naive, don't you think?

For instance, I once had a coworker who caught the bus, and so had to walk through a neighborhood between the bus stop and work. It was a white suburban neighborhood, and here was this young black man walking down the street caring a backpack. They called the cops on him. He's not a teenager, he's not doing anything wrong - he wasn't loitering or peering in windows or anything like that. He was just...black.

With that much latent distrust in day to day interactions, it's bound to affect hiring decisions. And black people know that they have to 'act white' at work if they want to have a professional job in a mostly-white office building. That's just how things are.

Nondiscrimination laws are probably good enough to deal with the situation, but then...you have to go to all the trouble of suing when you are treated unfairly and go to court. It's better to nip some of that in the bud by just flat-out making it clear that that isn't the way to do business.
[/quote]



So what your saying is that because there are white people who are racist against black people, we should institutionalize racism against white people and pro black people. How exactly is that going to change the hearts of the racistwhite people. Doesn't that just show them that indeed black people cannot make it on thier own and must be helped bythe state while white people are expected to make it even while being discriminated against by the state? How is that correcting thier attitude, and how is embracing theevilof racial discrimination a way to combat it?

[MithLuin]

As I believe I have pointed out multiple times...suggest an alternative to affirmative action, and I'm sure many would go for it.

What is not considered 'okay' is pretending that there is no problem at all. A lot of the 'get rid of AA!' rhetoric seems to focus on dismantling it for its flaws (fair enough) without suggesting what can be done instead.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1305053656' post='2239716']
As I believe I have pointed out multiple times...suggest an alternative to affirmative action, and I'm sure many would go for it.

What is not considered 'okay' is pretending that there is no problem at all. A lot of the 'get rid of AA!' rhetoric seems to focus on dismantling it for its flaws (fair enough) without suggesting what can be done instead.
[/quote]
I have yet to see anyevidence that anything needs to be done instead.

There are Racist.... of all races.... see how happy a lot of black families is when thier daughter brings home a white boy.


Affirmative action is morally no differant than Jim Crow. It is not flawed.... it is repugnent.

How is institutionalizing racism good in any way?

Affirmative action limits freedom and promotes racism, the burden of proof is on those who endorse it not those who wish to increase freedom and eliminate institutionalized racism.

Please provide evidence about why the state should make any laws about this at all?

[Amppax]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305054401' post='2239727']
I have yet to see anyevidence that anything needs to be done instead.

There are Racist.... of all races.... see how happy a lot of black families is when thier daughter brings home a white boy.


Affirmative action is morally no differant than Jim Crow. It is not flawed.... it is repugnent.

How is institutionalizing racism good in any way?

Affirmative action limits freedom and promotes racism, the burden of proof is on those who endorse it not those who wish to increase freedom and eliminate institutionalized racism.

Please provide evidence about why the state should make any laws about this at all?
[/quote]


Again, we're not really arguing for affirmative action so much as arguing against the things that it sets out to rectify.

*Edit: sorry changed my mind about what to post.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Amppax

[Amppax]

Based on that, what are the solutions that you would propose? I'm not really looking for overall, fix all the problem type of solutions, i'm looking for the little things that would make up such a solution, because these problems obviously can't be fixed overnight.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1305055023' post='2239732']
Based on that, what are the solutions that you would propose? I'm not really looking for overall, fix all the problem type of solutions, i'm looking for the little things that would make up such a solution, because these problems obviously can't be fixed overnight.
[/quote]

Today, there is fear of going to a black doctor for fear of them being 'affirmative action' candidates. On the other hand, if there was no affirmative action, and there was a black doctor, you could have just as much confidence as with any other doctor. In an even more extreme situation, if you know that there *is* bigotry against a particular 'type' then you should seek out the members of that group because you know that they are likely to be *better* than average.