Norseman82 Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304551911' post='2237189'] I have no problem with a "less qualified" black person getting selected for a job over a "more qualified" white person. [/quote] Well, I do have a problem with it, especially in matters of "public safety" occupations. Let me put it to you this way: would you want that "less qualified" doctor (or a doctor who would not be qualified if it were not for affirmative action points) doing open-heart surgery on one of your kids? Or risk crashing into a mountain or wandering into Libyan or Iranian airspace because of a "less qualified" pilot flying the plane? The only time I find it permissible is when there are two equally qualified candidates and you need a tie-breaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RezaMikhaeil Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1304725775' post='2238138'] I do not care even the tiniest bit what your legal books say. [/quote] Why do you gotta be so rude dude? I was pretty calm with you and showed you respect. Anyways, you said you were done with this conversation but I guess not huh? As for "my legal books", it's not "my legal books", I was referencing a specific law of this country and I'd even said that I disagree with it, so why don't you take a few reading and compehension classes - k pumpkin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 [quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1304728287' post='2238160'] Why do you gotta be so rude dude? I was pretty calm with you and showed you respect. Anyways, you said you were done with this conversation but I guess not huh? As for "my legal books", it's not "my legal books", I was referencing a specific law of this country and I'd even said that I disagree with it, so why don't you take a few reading and compehension classes - k pumpkin? [/quote] That would have sounded different if we were speaking face to face. I apologize if my post was imprecisely toned so as to offend you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RezaMikhaeil Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1304727468' post='2238149'] Well, I do have a problem with it, especially in matters of "public safety" occupations. Let me put it to you this way: would you want that "less qualified" doctor (or a doctor who would not be qualified if it were not for affirmative action points) doing open-heart surgery on one of your kids? Or risk crashing into a mountain or wandering into Libyan or Iranian airspace because of a "less qualified" pilot flying the plane? The only time I find it permissible is when there are two equally qualified candidates and you need a tie-breaker. [/quote] What he meant by "less qualified" isn't along the lines of having a doctor who is not qualified to practice, getting such employment. Rather he was referencing someone who may not have as "pretty" of credentials, but is better in other areas. IE: A less qualified black doctor, who is applying for a medical research position, may be more likely to progress rapidly, think outside of the box, etc. because of the circumstances for which he came. We have witnessed this before. In hiphop, when Death Row Records was on top in the 90's, they were largely successful business wise, because Suge Knight was a young black man that came from nothing, who was not making the same mistakes as other record executives because he wasn't schooled traditiionally in the business and knew what it was like to struggle in the face of great adversity. Say what you want about him, the man is a genius. Note: Suge Knights official "credentials" are lack to none outside of Death Row, other then playing football, being a bodyguard, etc. Thou being a body guard is one of the best music schools one can go to on the business end. Edited May 7, 2011 by RezaMikhaeil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 [quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1304728287' post='2238160'] Why do you gotta be so rude dude? I was pretty calm with you and showed you respect. Anyways, you said you were done with this conversation but I guess not huh? As for "my legal books", it's not "my legal books", I was referencing a specific law of this country and I'd even said that I disagree with it, so why don't you take a few reading and compehension classes - k pumpkin? [/quote] An unjust statute is not, in fact, a law. No matter what any book or blackrobe says. A law, by its definition, must be an ordinance of right reason. It is an abuse of the word "law" to ascribe the term to a statute that says murder is legitimate. ~Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1304727468' post='2238149'] Well, I do have a problem with it, especially in matters of "public safety" occupations. Let me put it to you this way: would you want that "less qualified" doctor (or a doctor who would not be qualified if it were not for affirmative action points) doing open-heart surgery on one of your kids? Or risk crashing into a mountain or wandering into Libyan or Iranian airspace because of a "less qualified" pilot flying the plane? The only time I find it permissible is when there are two equally qualified candidates and you need a tie-breaker. [/quote] I have a problem with that too. Fixing Racism with Racism isn't going to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RezaMikhaeil Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1304731136' post='2238201'] An unjust statute is not, in fact, a law. No matter what any book or blackrobe says. A law, by its definition, must be an ordinance of right reason. It is an abuse of the word "law" to ascribe the term to a statute that says murder is legitimate. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Well it's unjust in your opinion, but many people [infact the majority of our country at the moment] believes that it is just and legally speaking it's on books. If it was not a law, it wouldn't be on the books and the supreme court would rule on such. However, as of so far, the supreme court rules on the side of abortion being just and legal. I'm not saying that it's my opinion, nor that I agree with it. People that I know me, know that I'm one of the most fierce critics against it. I did not shed one tear when Dr. Tiller died, nor do I think that it's wrong to refer to him as "tiller the baby killer", because it's calling him for what he is. I'm against Eugenics and 100% pro-life. I have three children and one on the way and agree with Mother Theresa's Nobel Peace Prize speech [thou I'm not that fond of her as a person]. As for the term "law", it has nothing to do with it being just. It is defined as, "the principles and regulations established in a community by some authority and applicable to its people, whether in the form of legislation or of custom and policies recognized and enforced by judicial decision." I'm against the death penalty and think that it's completely unjust as it's applied in our country but I would never say that it's not a law in our country because I accept what the reality of the situation is in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted May 7, 2011 Author Share Posted May 7, 2011 [quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1304736141' post='2238259'] Well it's unjust in your opinion, but many people [infact the majority of our country at the moment] believes that it is just and legally speaking it's on books. If it was not a law, it wouldn't be on the books and the supreme court would rule on such. However, as of so far, the supreme court rules on the side of abortion being just and legal. I'm not saying that it's my opinion, nor that I agree with it. People that I know me, know that I'm one of the most fierce critics against it. I did not shed one tear when Dr. Tiller died, nor do I think that it's wrong to refer to him as "tiller the baby killer", because it's calling him for what he is. I'm against Eugenics and 100% pro-life. I have three children and one on the way and agree with Mother Theresa's Nobel Peace Prize speech [thou I'm not that fond of her as a person]. As for the term "law", it has nothing to do with it being just. It is defined as, "the principles and regulations established in a community by some authority and applicable to its people, whether in the form of legislation or of custom and policies recognized and enforced by judicial decision." I'm against the death penalty and think that it's completely unjust as it's applied in our country but I would never say that it's not a law in our country because I accept what the reality of the situation is in this country. [/quote] If you want to debate the definition and theory of law, go ahead. But we're not talking about that here, please don't hijack the thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1304719323' post='2238090'] Do you actually see people denied of promotions because of their race? Do you see people use inappropriate words that are intended to inflict pain on a certain group of people? Do you see people not hanging around certain groups of people because they are a different race? [/quote] Yes. Yes. Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 (edited) [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304737104' post='2238266'] Yes. Yes. Yes. [/quote] I guess I have lived a very sheltered life then. Because I never noticed this was going on. Edited May 7, 2011 by infinitelord1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RezaMikhaeil Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304736329' post='2238261'] If you want to debate the definition and theory of law, go ahead. But we're not talking about that here, please don't hijack the thread [/quote] I'm not hijacking the thread, I'm responding to individuals who challenged me, as it was mentioned previously. If you go back and re-read my posts, you'll see that I responded specifically to this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted May 7, 2011 Author Share Posted May 7, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1304737685' post='2238268'] I guess I have lived a very sheltered life then. Because I never noticed this was going on. [/quote] I would say a couple things about this. I think in some senses it depends on the type of area that you live in, and where in the country you are, although i really think that racism is present to a certain extent everywhere, its just not as obvious in some places. I would also say that there are varying levels of racism, ranging from blatant to subtle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 [quote name='Norseman82' timestamp='1304727468' post='2238149'] Let me put it to you this way: would you want that "less qualified" doctor (or a doctor who would not be qualified if it were not for affirmative action points) doing open-heart surgery on one of your kids? [/quote] "Less qualified" does not mean "not qualified", and in a lot of cases it doesn't even mean less qualified. If the man was black, and got a job as an open heart surgeon, and beat out a white doctor, despite not going to as prestigious a school, or not coming from a long line of surgeons in his family... no, I'd have absolutely no problem at all with him performing open heart surgery on my kid. None. [quote]Or risk crashing into a mountain or wandering into Libyan or Iranian airspace because of a "less qualified" pilot flying the plane?[/quote] "Less qualified" does not mean "not qualified", and in a lot of cases it doesn't even mean less qualified. If the man was black, and got a job as a pilot, and beat out a white pilot, despite the white pilot having a higher GPA and a father who was a general... no, I'd have absolutely no problem at all with him flying me around. None. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304737893' post='2238271'] I would say a couple things about this. I think in some senses it depends on the type of area that you live in, and where in the country you are, although i really think that racism is present to a certain extent everywhere, its just not as obvious in some places. I would also say that there are varying levels of racism, ranging from blatant to subtle. [/quote] Yeah I was just thinking about it more....I am from Flint, Michigan. You might as well say I'm from Detroit. I think Eminem sums up how us White Boys from Detroit Roll. We will just say we got a little bit of black in us. And we certainly would not be ashamed to date a black girl. Edited May 7, 2011 by infinitelord1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norseman82 Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 (edited) [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304738066' post='2238272'] "Less qualified" does not mean "not qualified", and in a lot of cases it doesn't even mean less qualified. If the man was black, and got a job as an open heart surgeon, and beat out a white doctor, despite not going to as prestigious a school, or not coming from a long line of surgeons in his family... no, I'd have absolutely no problem at all with him performing open heart surgery on my kid. None. "Less qualified" does not mean "not qualified", and in a lot of cases it doesn't even mean less qualified. If the man was black, and got a job as a pilot, and beat out a white pilot, despite the white pilot having a higher GPA and a father who was a general... no, I'd have absolutely no problem at all with him flying me around. None. [/quote] I have no problem with the above situations if the non-white person lost fair and square. If I am a small businessman or a hiring manager, there may be other experience I look at, such as the black doctor having served as a flight surgeon in the military or experience in an urban trauma center. Or, if I am a retailer seeking to expand into a non-white community, I may find it to be "good business" to have the manager and significant portion of the staff to be from the community (whether it be African American on the south side, or Puerto Rican in Humboldt Park who can speak Spanish). Those would be what are known as [b]bona fide business qualifications[/b]. However, I would have a problem with being threatened with a lawsuit or the government telling me that I have to have X number of people from a certain group of people (aka "quotas") and subjecting me to "radius tests" every time a baseless accusation against me is brought before the EEOC, and telling me that I would have to readjust my way of doing business and telling me I cannot use my best judgmment in determining who is the best fit for the positions I need to have filled, and if my percentages do not match up to the imposed quota I will be subject to scrutiny and I would have to spend time and effort dealing with the headaches of defending and/or monitoring myself that could be better spent actually growing the business and competing and providing jobs. Or, look at what happens when police and firefighters take promotions exams. If the exams do not yield the desired quota, the test is thrown out or scores need to somehow get "readjusted" until an acceptable quota is arrived at. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,973025,00.html Edited May 7, 2011 by Norseman82 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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