Affirmative Action

[Amppax]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1304648856' post='2237810']
So...discriminating.
[/quote]

acknowledging that there are differences? yes. And i really don't see how this is a bad thing, considering these differences aren't really something that people can compensate for.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304649362' post='2237814']
Really, racism isn't still a problem in our society?? Wow, um.... not sure what to say to this except to say yeah, yeah it really is. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif[/img] You're point about having an African American president really isn't that valid, if anything i would say racism has actually increased since he has been elected, not decreased. Yes it is a great step (whether you hate the guy or love him) that this country has elected a minority for president. But you can't actually think that a step in the right direction (again whether or not you like President Obama) has suddenly shown that all our problems are solved.
[/quote]

no, if you read what I wrote carefully you'll see I acknowledge there is still a problem with racism. And no not all the problems are solved. But I think electing a black man to the presidency is significantly more than just a step in the right direction. This is the leader of the free world we are talking about. I think it really makes a statement about where we are as a culture.

ETA: I think the racism that was already there just comes into focus more when there is a lightning rod like a black man in the White House to attract it. But I really don't think racism has increased in any appreciable way. In fact the public display of an attractive, educated black man and his attractive, educated wife goes a long way to dispel stereotypes about blacks, authentic black culture and so on.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Maggie

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304649362' post='2237814']
Really, racism isn't still a problem in our society?? Wow, um.... not sure what to say to this except to say yeah, yeah it really is. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif[/img] You're point about having an African American president really isn't that valid, if anything i would say racism has actually increased since he has been elected, not decreased. Yes it is a great step (whether you hate the guy or love him) that this country has elected a minority for president. But you can't actually think that a step in the right direction (again whether or not you like President Obama) has suddenly shown that all our problems are solved.
[/quote]


Obviously more than half of the American Population is not racist since we have a minority as a President. Probably a large majority of the population is not racist. Just because you didn't vote for Obama does not mean you are a racist. I know a lot of minorities like to tag "Racist" on people who support the Republican party. Those same people even call the Tea Party a bunch of racists. I personally think most conservatives (Republican and Tea Party) are not racists. They simply have a very conservative approach to the way they view things, and that may offend a lot of people in certain ways. I think we are starting to see African American leaders arising within these parties even.

Lets not forget about the Black Supremecists and "La Raza". La Raza (or The Race) is a hispanic movement of Hispanic Supremecists who believe they are the superior race...La Raza is in the United States. Racism exists in all groups of people. Funny thing is the White Man is the one who takes the beating. Even though the same issues exists in pretty much all other cultures and races. I personally think the Arab Muslims are the biggest racists of them all. The Japanese are racist too.

Edited May 6, 2011 by infinitelord1

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1304649876' post='2237820']
no, if you read what I wrote carefully you'll see I acknowledge there is still a problem with racism. And no not all the problems are solved. But I think electing a black man to the presidency is significantly more than just a step in the right direction. This is the leader of the free world we are talking about. I think it really makes a statement about where we are as a culture.

ETA: I think the racism that was already there just comes into focus more when there is a lightning rod like a black man in the White House to attract it. But I really don't think racism has increased in any appreciable way. In fact the public display of an attractive, educated black man and his attractive, educated wife goes a long way to dispel stereotypes about blacks, authentic black culture and so on.
[/quote]


Now you know how I feel. People taking things out of context....

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1304645771' post='2237781']
is AA different from state to state, or is it a federal thing?
[/quote]
good question.

[dUSt]

Obama is a white-friendly black man. We won't really be able to tell if America is racist until Dr Dre, Dave Chapelle, or Samuel L Jackson is president.

[MIKolbe]

Dr. Dre is very white friendly.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304642471' post='2237759']
you keep calling it discrimination. And i would agree that there are ways to do AA that are definitely not right. But i don't think it is so much discrimination as it is taking into account that certain groups have a disadvantage to begin with, which is the result of past racism, and merely taking that into account when making a hiring decision. I don't think that is discrimination.
[/quote]


Your sugar coating discrimination. Ignoring or lessening one form.

[dUSt]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1304686693' post='2237913']
Your sugar coating discrimination. Ignoring or lessening one form.
[/quote]
All forms are not equal. It is much harder for a person in a position of inferiority to discriminate against a person in a position of power. On the other hand, it is much easier for a powerful person to discriminate against a person in a weaker position.

I think your problem is looking at everything black and white (no pun intended).

Again, works in theory, but not in actual practice. We live in a real world with a lot of gray areas, and you can't make blanket statements like "discrimination is discrimination". It just doesn't work like that in real life.

You simply won't convince many people of your argument if you go into it thinking that discrimination against minorities (less power) is the exact same thing as discrimination against whites (more power). In actual practice, they are not the same thing at all. One results in nothing, the other results in actual consequences.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304672382' post='2237875']
Obama is a white-friendly black man. We won't really be able to tell if America is racist until Dr Dre, Dave Chapelle, or Samuel L Jackson is president.
[/quote]
I don't get this. So a black person can be not 'black' enough?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1304695829' post='2237952']
I don't get this. So a black person can be not 'black' enough?
[/quote]
Sorta. I guess what I'm saying is, assuming the country is not racist because we elected a black president is like saying that white people can't be racist just because they have black friends. I don't know how many times I've heard people say, "I'm not racist. I have a lot of black friends." Yet, if you ask those same people if they'd allow their daughter date a black man, they hesitate.

And also, yes, Obama is 1/2 white. So, technically, he's only 1/2 black enough.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1304649876' post='2237820']
[/quote]


[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1304651040' post='2237828']
[/quote]



What I am trying to say is this: Racism is definitely a problem in our society. Our society is very divided along racial lines, and certain races are definitely as a whole disadvantaged by their race. I do think that we have moved forward, in the sense that we tolerate other races, but not in the sense that we have an integrated society. People are still disadvantaged by their race, and until that changes to a greater degree then it has, i think we need to continue to do something about it. Does that mean that Affirmative Action is the best way to do this? No, probably not, but I can't seem to find anyone proposing anyway that i like any better.

*Edit: sorry didn't quote what you said, was more responding to the overall sentiment that both expressed. If i misrepresented something that someone has said, sorry

Edited May 6, 2011 by Amppax

[ParadiseFound]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304672382' post='2237875']
Obama is a white-friendly black man. We won't really be able to tell if America is racist until Dr Dre, Dave Chapelle, or Samuel L Jackson is president.
[/quote]
Samuel L. Jackson for president, nao. xD

His campaign slogan would only have to be one word, beginning with 'm' and ending in 'r'. You know what it is.

[Papist]

[font="Verdana, sans-serif"][font="Arial"]The people don't really need it. There are individuals who because of race, creed or religion have been denied their basic natural rights, affirmative action does not offer the proper remedy. It does not matter who you are or what color your skin is, if you chose to excel then you will excel no matter what. Affirmative action serves to divide the populace allowing for more government controls. When the rights of groups are valued more than the rights of individuals, then freedom has taken a back seat to government intrusion.[/font][/font]
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[/font]
[font="Verdana, sans-serif"][font="Arial"]Affirmative action is descrimination by another name. It descriminates against non-minorities in order to compensate the minorities. This is institutional discrimination. Laws should be "race-blind" to counter discrimination because Affirmative Action descriminates against non-minorities, it is wrong and should be replaced by "race blind" laws that give no consideration at all to race, background, religion, or any other factors other than merit.[/font][/font]
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[/font]
[font="Verdana, sans-serif"][font="Arial"]Affirmative action does more harm than good to minorities. Asian and Jewish Americans are an example of this, where they have been victims of institutional racism[and continue to be victims of forms of racism and prejudice], but whom are harmed by affirmative action since it benefits largely black and Hispanic populations. This disproportionate effect is perverse and counter-productive considering that the intent of affirmative action is to eliminate discrimination.[/font] [/font]
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[font="Arial"]Affirm action wrongly considers race over economics and educational factors. Economic or educational disadvantages do not necessarily correlate to those of a particular racial/ethnic status. There are many examples of wealthy well educated black youths that have experienced every society advantage there is. There are also examples of white youths that have lived in economic and educational squaller. If it is economic and educational disadvantages that are the problem, why not focus in affirmative action on these criteria instead of race and ethnicity.[/font][/font]
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[font="Verdana, sans-serif"][font="Arial"]Affirmative action mismatches bad students with difficult classes. By admitting minority students who are less qualified than their peers into more rigorous programs wherein they cannot keep up. UCLA School of Law professor Richard Sander wrote several papers on this occurring in both the law schools themselves and in law firms.[/font][/font]
[font="Verdana, sans-serif"] [/font]
[font="Verdana, sans-serif"][font="Arial"]Affirmative action lowers value of degrees earned by minorities. Affirmative action creates an impression or a concern that black individuals that earn a particular degree, do so with the help of affirmative action, rather than by their own merits. This diminishes the value that job-seekers and society place on these degrees, relative to ones earned by non-minorities who did not have the help of Affirmative Action.[/font][/font]

Edited May 6, 2011 by Papist

[Amppax]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1304700704' post='2237978']
[font="Verdana, sans-serif"][font="Arial"]The people don't really need it. There are individuals who because of race, creed or religion have been denied their basic natural rights, affirmative action does not offer the proper remedy. It does not matter who you are or what color your skin is, if you chose to excel then you will excel no matter what. Affirmative action serves to divide the populace allowing for more government controls. When the rights of groups are valued more than the rights of individuals, then freedom has taken a back seat to government intrusion.[/font][/font] [/quote]

What is the remedy then...try harder? Yes, people can excel no matter where they are, but environment plays a huge role in equipping people with the tools to excel.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Amppax