Affirmative Action

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='apparently' timestamp='1304639976' post='2237731']
[b]Affirmative Action is a win[/b]
a few years ago i was running a large construction project with strict Affirmative Action hiring requirements. i hired carpenters and laborers per the requirements and was disappointed, as most of the workers refused to work knowing or thinking that they could not be fired because of there minority status. i turned to the local native American nation, the Onondaga nation. not only did i find excellent hardworking individuals, but the man and woman turned out to be my best tradespeople in the whole entire crew and friends.
had it not been for Affirmative Action i would never have put them on the payroll

i had to fire, the original crew and was threatened with legal action, i did , those people lost out , in more ways that one.
[/quote]

In other words, you hired minorities under affirmative action/race-based hiring, got lemons [i]because/due to the nature[/i] of affirmative action, then hired other minorities to replace the lemons because you thought their character and skill set would be a better fit for the job, and you call "affirmative action" itself a [i]win? [/i]That's like calling original sin a "win" because Jesus came to save us, while He never would have had to die and save us in the first place, but for original sin. "O happy fault," is how one said "original sin is a win" in the old days.
[i]
[/i]That's the State for you: "It breaks your leg, then gives you a crutch and says, 'See, without us, you wouldn't be able to walk!'"

[i] ~[/i]Sternhauer

Edited May 6, 2011 by Sternhauser

[add]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1304641686' post='2237753']
In other words, you hired minorities under affirmative action/race-based hiring, got lemons [i]because[/i] of affirmative action, then hired other minorities to replace the lemons because you thought their character and skill set would be a better fit for the job, and you call "affirmative action" itself a [i]win? [/i]That's like calling original sin a "win" because Jesus came to save us, while He never would have had to die and save us in the first place, but for original sin. "O happy fault," is how you said "original sin is a win" in the old days.
[i]
[/i]That's the State for you: "It breaks your leg, then gives you a crutch and says, 'See, without us you wouldn't be able to walk!'"

[i] ~[/i]Sternhauer
[/quote]

i hired other minorities because of the law and was pleasantly surprised. my job was to build a building for a profit. it's what i do.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='apparently' timestamp='1304642166' post='2237755']
i hired other minorities because of the law and was pleasantly surprised. my job was to build a building for a profit. it's what i do.
[/quote]

Yes. God has a way of bringing about good from evil. That doesn't mean evil is a "win."

~Sternhauser

Edited May 6, 2011 by Sternhauser

[Amppax]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1304641141' post='2237748']
You don't think reverse discrimination is a grave moral evil and so you think it's ridiculous. I have been in the working world for 23 years and have seen AA in action. It is discrimination. You can't make up for grave moral evils of the past by committing them today. Nor can you make up for grave moral evils today by committing another one. Race based selection of any kind is a grave moral evil. Again I am in favor of changing society. AA is not the way.
[/quote]

you keep calling it discrimination. And i would agree that there are ways to do AA that are definitely not right. But i don't think it is so much discrimination as it is taking into account that certain groups have a disadvantage to begin with, which is the result of past racism, and merely taking that into account when making a hiring decision. I don't think that is discrimination.

[MithLuin]

Everyone keeps suggesting that affirmative action is meant to rectify 'past' injustice.

Hate to burst anyone's bubbles, but it's meant to actively counteract [i]current[/i] racism and injustice.

Sure, slavery and Jim Crow are in the past. And that's why laws against those things have already been written and dealt with. That's not what affirmative action is.

And yes, there's some obvious problems with the system, not least is which a sense of entitlement/immunity. Minorities may think they can just sue if they don't get a job or get fired....and employers are therefore nervous about turning down such candidates. So, there's a good bit of awkwardness.

I'm fine with people complaining about affirmative action laws. I do want to know what the alternative suggestion is. Because if it's just dropped....there is plenty of injustice happening [i]right now[/i] in this country.

[dairygirl4u2c]

if employers are hiring based on race, they can be sued. if a race is pretty clearly better qualified,and aren't hired, they can be sued if discriminatory. of course, it's a question of whether it was based on race or not which isn't always clear, but many times it could be obvious.
that's a pretty good weapon against racism.

then, we have that AA is suppose to be done, only when all else is equal, ie, all qualifications are the same, then you can base on race. at elast as far as colleges, and maybe the work place. it looks like winchester might have another story, i dont know, at least for jobs.
that's not that bad, unless you're against it in principle, inhernetly wrong. ends justify means etc etc

i do know, if we're hiring based on race when others are more qualified, that's almost pure evil. and it's ironic that some of the most vocal of those pushing for anti racism would be pushing for that sorta stuff.
it doesn't matter if your race has been discriminated against.... how is it right in hiring jamal who's bottom of his class and who knows if he labored.. over john who's done so well laboring through school? that's blatantly wrong. an evil against individuals to address past wrongs, and even current wrongs, that dont involved them, is just messed up. this only remotely even accomplishes anything, too, in moving their lot up.

Edited May 6, 2011 by dairygirl4u2c

[Lil Red]

is AA different from state to state, or is it a federal thing?

[Amppax]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1304644664' post='2237776']
Everyone keeps suggesting that affirmative action is meant to rectify 'past' injustice.

Hate to burst anyone's bubbles, but it's meant to actively counteract [i]current[/i] racism and injustice.

Sure, slavery and Jim Crow are in the past. And that's why laws against those things have already been written and dealt with. That's not what affirmative action is.

And yes, there's some obvious problems with the system, not least is which a sense of entitlement/immunity. Minorities may think they can just sue if they don't get a job or get fired....and employers are therefore nervous about turning down such candidates. So, there's a good bit of awkwardness.

I'm fine with people complaining about affirmative action laws. I do want to know what the alternative suggestion is. Because if it's just dropped....there is plenty of injustice happening [i]right now[/i] in this country.
[/quote]

YES! although i would say that the basis of a lot of current injustice is past injustice (obviously), i think that is more the angle that people are talking about when they say it is to 'rectify past injustice.' But I totally agree with what you are saying, there are flaws, but really, what are the suggestions to fix this that critics are proposing?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304642471' post='2237759']
you keep calling it discrimination. And i would agree that there are ways to do AA that are definitely not right. But i don't think it is so much discrimination as it is taking into account that certain groups have a disadvantage to begin with, which is the result of past racism, and merely taking that into account when making a hiring decision. I don't think that is discrimination.
[/quote]
Isn't the decision based upon differences between two things? That would be discrimination.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1304647276' post='2237788']
Isn't the decision based upon differences between two things? That would be discrimination.
[/quote]


There is inequality, I am advocating taking all factors into account when making a decision, in an attempt to create a complete picture of applicants.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1304644664' post='2237776']


I'm fine with people complaining about affirmative action laws. I do want to know what the alternative suggestion is. Because if it's just dropped....there is plenty of injustice happening [i]right now[/i] in this country.
[/quote]

It's true there's injustice in our society - but one of the things I mentioned, which nobody has addressed yet, is just how racist is a society that chooses an African American as its leader? Just as Catholics were said to have arrived with the election of JFK, I think the same can be said to some degree with Obama. There is still discrimination against Catholics just as their is still discrimination against blacks, but I don't think it can be claimed that it is an epidemic in our society. Granted, I think Obama is in the position he is in in part due to affirmative action (getting into a good college etc... although his father was a doctoral candidate at Harvard). But I think that's evidence that the Affirmative Action programs worked. They did what they were supposed to do. And therefore they are probably no longer necessary.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='apparently' timestamp='1304641576' post='2237752']
one of the Onondaga carpenters i hired resented (HATED) being called "native American" , he figured America was a name picked by some obscure European map maker, he did not care for the term "Indian" either as he was not from India. this man was a Onondaga and proud of it. (i Envied his heritage, as a third generation American white person i don't really have any. )
technical the government did not get him work --------------- HE EARNED IT!-----------------------
[/quote]
Well, normally, I just call them "natives" because that is what they are called around here, but I didn't know if it was pc enough. I guess neither is Native American. Not really sure why I bothered trying.


While I don't really agree with affirmative action, I also do think there is a definite need to somehow level the playing field. I just think it's far more complex than something one law can solve. I mean, how does one pull themselves from a poverty stricken town with no opportunities, where alcoholism and suicide are the norm and that's all the kids there have ever known?

[Winchester]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304647754' post='2237795']
There is inequality, I am advocating taking all factors into account when making a decision, in an attempt to create a complete picture of applicants.
[/quote]
So...discriminating.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Maggie' timestamp='1304648108' post='2237802']
It's true there's injustice in our society - but one of the things I mentioned, which nobody has addressed yet, is just how racist is a society that chooses an African American as its leader? Just as Catholics were said to have arrived with the election of JFK, I think the same can be said to some degree with Obama. There is still discrimination against Catholics just as their is still discrimination against blacks, but I don't think it can be claimed that it is an epidemic in our society. Granted, I think Obama is in the position he is in in part due to affirmative action (getting into a good college etc... although his father was a doctoral candidate at Harvard). But I think that's evidence that the Affirmative Action programs worked. They did what they were supposed to do. And therefore they are probably no longer necessary.
[/quote]

Really, racism isn't still a problem in our society?? Wow, um.... not sure what to say to this except to say yeah, yeah it really is. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif[/img] You're point about having an African American president really isn't that valid, if anything i would say racism has actually increased since he has been elected, not decreased. Yes it is a great step (whether you hate the guy or love him) that this country has elected a minority for president. But you can't actually think that a step in the right direction (again whether or not you like President Obama) has suddenly shown that all our problems are solved.

[Winchester]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304649362' post='2237814']
Really, racism isn't still a problem in our society?? Wow, um.... not sure what to say to this except to say yeah, yeah it really is. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif[/img] You're point about having an African American president really isn't that valid, if anything i would say racism has actually increased since he has been elected, not decreased. Yes it is a great step (whether you hate the guy or love him) that this country has elected a minority for president. But you can't actually think that a step in the right direction (again whether or not you like President Obama) has suddenly shown that all our problems are solved.
[/quote]
Africa: Still not a color.