Religiosity And Intellgence Quotiants

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='MagiDragon' timestamp='1304955376' post='2239085']
Yeah, IMO there are some really weak arguments for intelligent design based on 'probability.' As a computer programmer, there's a rarely used algorithm known as a 'genetic algorithm' which is based loosely off of how evolution works. It's used in optimization problems where the solution is likely to be very complex, but the capability of that solution is easily measurable. The algorithm ends up producing results that can be shockingly intelligent in spite of no real 'intelligence' being used in the program itself. [url="http://www.damninteresting.com/on-the-origin-of-circuits"]Here's an example.[/url][/quote]

That's exactly what I was talking about.

Of course, there are those who say that the intelligence is in the design of the algorithm, such as deists, which I feel is beyond conclusive proof. But as for the universe, where some would say that there's "intelligence", others would say that it's "ordered complexity" because the word "intelligence" has baggage. The atheistic sides on that issue include a sort of natural selection of universes even, and the idea that we're a lucky ones because we're the product of a universe fit for our existence, but again, there's no conclusive proof for that either. But it makes for good science fiction (?) stories.

[Winchester]

[quote name='MagiDragon' timestamp='1304955376' post='2239085']
Yeah, IMO there are some really weak arguments for intelligent design based on 'probability.' As a computer programmer, there's a rarely used algorithm known as a 'genetic algorithm' which is based loosely off of how evolution works. It's used in optimization problems where the solution is likely to be very complex, but the capability of that solution is easily measurable. The algorithm ends up producing results that can be shockingly intelligent in spite of no real 'intelligence' being used in the program itself. [url="http://www.damninteresting.com/on-the-origin-of-circuits"]Here's an example.[/url]

I think the most convincing arguments for God come from the torture of the apostles. Assuming that you trust historical documents, we can show that 10 of The Twelve were tortured to death for their beliefs. There can be no personal gain in this life by being tortured to death, so they clearly believed what they taught. This seems to lend some credence to the idea that Jesus rose. If not, why didn't they just say "Please don't dunk me in the vat of boiling oil, it's all a lie! I'll stop preaching!"?

Of course, there are a lot of other good arguments, but that argument is a pretty easy one to make.

Peace,
Joe
[/quote]
The algorithm and the means for it to operate just occurred randomly?

[Socrates]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1304728182' post='2238158']
I would dispute that the "creator" is "intelligent" but yes, it is reasonable.

Physicists are saying that the universe apparently didn't need a cause and that whatever cause outside the universe could not have any effect on the universe once it existed, and I'll take their word on it, because it is reasonable to accept what actual authorities on the subject are saying.
[/quote]
The problem of Being vs. Non-being, and the ultimate Cause of Being, is metaphysical, rather than physical, and can't be answered by physics.

All discussion of the ultimate cause of being, whether by Christians, atheists, or others, is philosophical and metaphysical, rather than a matter of the physical science.
Physics has done (and can do) nothing to resolve this issue.

[Socrates]

[quote name='MagiDragon' timestamp='1304955376' post='2239085']
Yeah, IMO there are some really weak arguments for intelligent design based on 'probability.' As a computer programmer, there's a rarely used algorithm known as a 'genetic algorithm' which is based loosely off of how evolution works. It's used in optimization problems where the solution is likely to be very complex, but the capability of that solution is easily measurable. The algorithm ends up producing results that can be shockingly intelligent in spite of no real 'intelligence' being used in the program itself. [url="http://www.damninteresting.com/on-the-origin-of-circuits"]Here's an example.[/url][/quote]
And the program that generated those algorithms was itself randomly created with no intelligent design behind it (by monkeys striking keys perhaps)?

I suppose we should assume the pictured microchips just randomly brought themselves into existence without the aid of intelligent design. (Perhaps by a random explosion on a piece of silicon?)


[quote]I think the most convincing arguments for God come from the torture of the apostles. Assuming that you trust historical documents, we can show that 10 of The Twelve were tortured to death for their beliefs. There can be no personal gain in this life by being tortured to death, so they clearly believed what they taught. This seems to lend some credence to the idea that Jesus rose. If not, why didn't they just say "Please don't dunk me in the vat of boiling oil, it's all a lie! I'll stop preaching!"?

Of course, there are a lot of other good arguments, but that argument is a pretty easy one to make.

Peace,
Joe[/quote]
That's a good argument for the Christian Faith (which cannot be logically proven, but requires Faith, but can be found to be reasonable by a historical analysis of its claims and those making them).

God's existence can be philosophically proven, but what human reason can tell us about God is itself quite limited.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1304960986' post='2239149']
The algorithm and the means for it to operate just occurred randomly?
[/quote]

Yeah, that is a good counter-argument, and I can tell you that it's much harder to design the "mating" algorithm than it is to design anything else in the genetic algorithm.

Edited May 10, 2011 by MagiDragon

[jkaands]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1304962707' post='2239175']
And the program that generated those algorithms was itself randomly created with no intelligent design behind it (by monkeys striking keys perhaps)?

I suppose we should assume the pictured microchips just randomly brought themselves into existence without the aid of intelligent design. (Perhaps by a random explosion on a piece of silicon?)

That's a good argument for the Christian Faith (which cannot be logically proven, but requires Faith, but can be found to be reasonable by a historical analysis of its claims and those making them).

God's existence can be philosophically proven, but what human reason can tell us about God is itself quite limited.
[/quote]

The suffering of the apostles is mirrored by the witnessed martyrdom of thousands of Buddhists, Hindus and Jews. There is one account I read of Jews being burned alive during the Middle Ages--they went to their horrible deaths singing the Shm'a, the profession of their faith (Hear, O Israel, the Lord is One).

The process of evolution explains intelligence.

[Socrates]

[quote name='jkaands' timestamp='1306298811' post='2245653']
The suffering of the apostles is mirrored by the witnessed martyrdom of thousands of Buddhists, Hindus and Jews. There is one account I read of Jews being burned alive during the Middle Ages--they went to their horrible deaths singing the Shm'a, the profession of their faith (Hear, O Israel, the Lord is One).

The process of evolution explains intelligence.
[/quote]
Yep, you've just proven atheism true!

You've got me. Guess I'll go out and worship Evolution, or Barrack Obama, or whatever the current atheist idol of choice happens to be.

[jkaands]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1306347257' post='2245850']
Yep, you've just proven atheism true!

You've got me. Guess I'll go out and worship Evolution, or Barrack Obama, or whatever the current atheist idol of choice happens to be.
[/quote]

My post was in response to the following:

[i]I think the most convincing arguments for God come from the torture of the apostles. Assuming that you trust historical documents, we can show that 10 of The Twelve were tortured to death for their beliefs. There can be no personal gain in this life by being tortured to death, so they clearly believed what they taugh[/i]t.

Faithful adherents of all religions have died in agony in witness to their faiths. There's nothing unique about the sufferings of the early Christians.

[Jesus_lol]

yeah, thats a bit like saying some modern cults are valid, just because hundreds of people believed in them enough to drink the poisonous KoolAid and also give them to their children. Their conviction does not prove anything.

[dairygirl4u2c]

'Faithful adherents of all religions have died in agony in witness to their faiths. There's nothing unique about the sufferings of the early Christians. '

it shows people are willing to die for their faith, yes.
most are detached from the situation though.
most dont say they saw someone rise from the dead, twelve of em, and then die for it.
unless one were to surmise they were just chumps claiming to have seen it, for attention and such, and were unrelated or maybe related, and... etc etc with the conspiracy, but.

[MithLuin]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1304369136' post='2235935']
A vast knowledge of facts is not intelligence.
[/quote]

Darn it, that's my strength!!!

For the record, I'll test highly on any standardized test meant to measure intelligence you throw at me - IQ, SAT, etc. The ability to take that kind of test measures something, but not the whole person. So, a useful tool, but also good to know its limitations. Gardner's Multiple Intelligences seeks to balance out the view of intelligence a bit more, but as far as I know there is no IQ-like test based on that yet.


The real answer to all of this is that God cares for his children. To whom much is given, much is expected. So, if you're very intelligent, and naturally skeptical, it's going to take a lot more effort for you to land at a place of belief and acceptance. That's...simply the way it works, part of your individual cross. For someone who has not been blessed with a quick mind, faith may be easier.

But it's more than that. Jesus warned us that the wealthy would find it quite difficult to enter the kingdom of heaven. So, if we find a lower level of faith and religious belief among highly educated, well-off people, should we be surprised?

Why is it that being wealthy kills faith?

There's no need to rely on divine providence if you can take care of yourself. Grace before meals and asking for your daily bread seems fake and trivial when you [i]know[/i] where your next meal is coming from and have no need to worry about going hungry. I'm not saying that nothing bad happens to the wealthy, I'm merely saying that the day-to-day struggles aren't a cause for relying on God to get you through the day.

But it's more than that, even. This is nothing new. St. Paul recognized that the early Christians were not exactly the brightest bulbs in society, and he felt that was intentional on God's part.

[quote]For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

[b]For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing[/b], but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE." Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. [b]Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, [/b]and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For consider your calling, brethren, [b]that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise,[/b] and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, so that no man may boast before God. But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

1 Corinthians 1: 17-35[/quote]


If those who are not very clever are not drawn aside by false teachings, this is merely an example of God protecting his own.

[MithLuin]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1306730291' post='2247587']
yeah, thats a bit like saying some modern cults are valid, just because hundreds of people believed in them enough to drink the poisonous KoolAid and also give them to their children. Their conviction does not prove anything.
[/quote]

Yes and no. The poisoned koolaid in Jonestown was administered to the children by their parents...but the adults were then forced to drink it at gunpoint. So, there were some 'true believers' in the group, certainly, but there was plenty of coercion going on as well.

Willing martyrdom is generally a sign of conviction, so that the person him/herself believes what is said to be true. You then must evaluate whether or not you trust that person's judgement.

Dairygirl has pointed out what makes the apostles unique - what they were claiming to believe was to be an eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, and what they were promising was the same for his followers....and they willingly went to their deaths for that belief. At the very least, they don't come across as clever scammers.

[Ash Wednesday]

Studies also suggest that believers and religious people tend to be more compassionate and generous to their fellow man. What's more important?

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='jkaands' timestamp='1306468117' post='2246516']
My post was in response to the following:

[i]I think the most convincing arguments for God come from the torture of the apostles. Assuming that you trust historical documents, we can show that 10 of The Twelve were tortured to death for their beliefs. There can be no personal gain in this life by being tortured to death, so they clearly believed what they taugh[/i]t.

Faithful adherents of all religions have died in agony in witness to their faiths. There's nothing unique about the sufferings of the early Christians.
[/quote]

Really? You claim that it's standard practice for the teachers of a religion to be tortured and while this occurs, they pray for the torturers? Present some cases of this.

Cults of personality fail this test because the teacher is not the one tortured. You could explain it by brainwashing, except those slow-witted enough to be brainwashed are rarely quick-witted enough to brainwash others while simultaneously being humble enough to die for their faith.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='MagiDragon' timestamp='1306865466' post='2248228']
Really? You claim that it's standard practice for the teachers of a religion to be tortured and while this occurs, they pray for the torturers? Present some cases of this.


[/quote]

You claim that it isnt? i think the burden of proof is on you for this one, its pretty well known that hundreds, thousands of members/clerics of non christian religions have undergone torture without betraying their faith, many praying for their attackers.