Religiosity And Intellgence Quotiants

[Winchester]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1306888382' post='2248436']
You claim that it isnt? i think the burden of proof is on you for this one, its pretty well known that hundreds, thousands of members/clerics of non christian religions have undergone torture without betraying their faith, many praying for their attackers.
[/quote]
Your face has the burden of proof.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1306888382' post='2248436']
You claim that it isnt? i think the burden of proof is on you for this one, its pretty well known that hundreds, thousands of members/clerics of non christian religions have undergone torture without betraying their faith, many praying for their attackers.
[/quote]

That's a pretty silly request, to paraphrase, you're saying "present to me every case of a non-Christian ever being tortured to death and show that none of them had benevolent wishes for their attackers."

My request is much simpler: "present a few cases of non-Christians being tortured to death and wanting good for their attackers."

Since your request is impossible, I'm afraid I must decline.

[sixpence]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1304459034' post='2236523']
three werds: confounding variables gangstas.
[/quote]

[jkaands]

[quote name='MagiDragon' timestamp='1306960432' post='2248894']
That's a pretty silly request, to paraphrase, you're saying "present to me every case of a non-Christian ever being tortured to death and show that none of them had benevolent wishes for their attackers."

My request is much simpler: "present a few cases of non-Christians being tortured to death and wanting good for their attackers."

Since your request is impossible, I'm afraid I must decline.
[/quote]

Catholics have a well-oiled hagiography which alleges many things about what dying Catholics say. Other religions don't have such a hagiography or if they do, there are few Westerners who can get access to the histories or read the languages in which it was written.

I'll wager that there are few on this forum who have read what the Buddhists said as they were slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands by Muslims as they invaded eastward, or who have read what the Jews said as they were slaughtered by Catholics throughout Europe.

Just because you allege that some Christians (Catholics, of course) die praying for their attackers doesn't make the deaths of all the others less noble, especially since you have[i] no idea [/i]what they said.

[Amppax]

[quote name='jkaands' timestamp='1307042134' post='2249250']
Catholics have a well-oiled hagiography which alleges many things about what dying Catholics say. Other religions don't have such a hagiography or if they do, there are few Westerners who can get access to the histories or read the languages in which it was written.

I'll wager that there are few on this forum who have read what the Buddhists said as they were slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands by Muslims as they invaded eastward, or who have read what the Jews said as they were slaughtered by Catholics throughout Europe.

Just because you allege that some Christians (Catholics, of course) die praying for their attackers doesn't make the deaths of all the others less noble, especially since you have[i] no idea [/i]what they said.
[/quote]

what exactly is your point with this?

[jkaands]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1307042270' post='2249252']
what exactly is your point with this?
[/quote]

If you don't understand, there is no way I can explain it to you.

[MithLuin]

Oh, please. Rather than arguing about what may or may not have been said by someone else, just look it up. Here's a sampling of other people's deaths, which of course in no way diminishes the deaths of the apostles by martyrdom.


[quote]Aeneas Sylvius, who afterwards became Pope, and whose narratives are not liable to the suspicion of being coloured, bear even higher testimony to the heroic demeanour of both Huss and Jerome at their execution. "Both," says the historian, "bore themselves with constant mind when their last hour approached. They prepared for the fire as if they were going to a marriage feast. They uttered no cry of pain. When the flames rose they began to sing hymns; and scarce could the vehemency of the fire stop their singing."

[url=http://www.godscare.net/palace/martyrroom1.htm](source)[/url][/quote]

John Huss was burned as a heretic by the Roman Catholic Church. Few heretics renounce their heresy, even upon pain of torture and death. Certainly, I cannot think of the 'leader' of any heresy taking back what they have said.

It is traditional for Jewish martyrs to recite one of the most important prayers of their faith, one they are to say twice a day.

[quote]The opening verse of Shema is the most important part of this most important prayer. It is traditionally whispered into the little ears of Jewish newborns, so that the totality of Jewish faith impresses itself onto that tiny consciousness, never to be erased, and is traditionally the last words uttered by a terminally ill Jew on his or her deathbed. Thus, the Jewish life begins and ends with the purest of faith. “Shema Yisrael, Hashem Elokeinu, Hashem Echad!”* were also the last words sung out by countless Jewish martyrs through the eons before they were brutally killed by Jew-haters, declaring their unswerving faith in G-d in the face of death.

*Listen, Israel, G-d is our Lord, G-d is One.

[url=http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/147,137/What-is-Shema.html](source)[/url][/quote]

Mohommed's last words: "O Allah! Pardon my sins. Yes, I come." [url=http://users.belgacom.net/gc674645/grave/lastword.htm](source)[/url]

[quote]William of Orange, first King of the Netherlands, as he was shot by an assassin,
"My God, my God, have mercy on me, and on my poor people!"[/quote]

Final letter of Thích Quảng Đức, a Buddhist monk who immolated himself in protest against the South Vietnamese government that was being run by a Catholic minority.

[quote]Before closing my eyes and moving towards the vision of the Buddha, I respectfully plead to President Ngo Dinh Diem to take a mind of compassion towards the people of the nation and implement religious equality to maintain the strength of the homeland eternally. I call the venerables, reverends, members of the sangha and the lay Buddhists to organise in solidarity to make sacrifices to protect Buddhism.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%ADch_Qu%E1%BA%A3ng_%C4%90%E1%BB%A9c]wikipedia[/url]
[/quote]

And for something current....

[quote]Deaths of two Tibetans in their sixties who tried to protect Kirti monks

Further information has emerged about the death of 60-year old Dongko, one of two Tibetans in their sixties to die following beatings by paramilitary police as they attempted to protect monks at Kirti.

On the night of April 21, police raided the monastery and took away more than 300 monks, according to exile sources in contact with people in the area. The monks are still being detained. As the monks were being driven away in large trucks, the group of laypeople – mainly in their forties or older – who had been standing vigil at the monastery gate were beaten “mercilessly” by police according to the same sources. “People had their arms and legs broken, one old woman had her leg broken in three places, and cloth was stuffed in their mouths to stifle their screams,” said an exiled Kirti monk. The two people who died in their attempt to prevent the monks from being taken away were Dongko (male), aged 60, and 65-year old Sherkyi (female). (http://savetibet.org/media-center/ict-news-reports/two-elderly-tibetans-killed-hundreds-monks-detained-kirti-crackdown-deepens).

Dongko was a respected elder from a nomadic family, married to a Chinese woman, with a son and daughter. According to a Tibetan eyewitness who spoke to a monk now in India, Dongko became involved in protecting the Kirti monks from April 12 onwards, joining a group of local people gathering to hold vigil at the monastery after rumors spread that the police were going to take monks away. The same source said that Dongko stayed at the entrance to the monastery from April 12, “day and night” until paramilitary trucks massed at the monastery on April 21 and police began the process of taking away at least 300 monks. The monk in exile in south India said: “On April 21, more than a few hundred local people came and held hands together in a peaceful attempt to prevent the troops entering the monastery.”

Dongko and other Tibetans were beaten by police and the vigil was broken up. Dongko later fell unconscious and was carried home, where he died in the early hours of April 22. The Tibetan source, who has contacts in the area, said that Dongko had been injured two weeks previously, when the police set trained dogs on the crowd of Tibetans who had gathered to protect the monks. “At that time many were seriously hurt from beatings or being bitten by the dogs and it is believed that Dongko was severely injured in the leg, but he never stopped his struggle.” The exact cause of his death is not known but Tibetans in contact with others in the area believe that it may have been a heart attack brought on by beatings and his injuries.

Dongko was a well-liked and respected person in the area, described by those who knew him as a “very reliable” person who acted as the treasurer for his village association, elected by the villagers. The association provides both financial and practical assistance for families living there.

The same exiled monk said: “His family tried to invite some monks from Kirti monastery to do the traditional prayer offerings, but the Kirti monks were not allowed to go. So monks from some other Ngaba monasteries went to do this. The funeral took place on April 26. The family tried to carry Dongko’s body into Kirti – as families have done for prayers and blessings for generations – but were not allowed to do so by the paramilitary forces, who turned them back. Also the police did not allow many people to gather at the home to recite prayers for Dongko.”

Full details about the circumstances of 65-year old Sherkyi are not yet known due to the security clampdown in the area. She was also beaten seriously on April 21-22 as she attempted to prevent the monks from being taken away from the monastery. In an official statement released last week in English, (http://www.china.org.cn/china/2011-04/29/content_22463668.htm), the state media incorrectly asserted that reports by the international media citing ICT on the deaths of the two Tibetans were “fictitious”. The statement did appear to acknowledge the death of an older woman, saying that an “86-year-old female herder died of lung disease at her home in Aba Tibetan-Qiang Autonomous Prefecture."

[url=http://savetibet.org/media-center/ict-news-reports/ngaba-students-protest-crackdown-authorities-respond-new-information-deaths-tibetans-who-t]source[/url][/quote]

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1307054464' post='2249313']
Oh, please. Rather than arguing about what may or may not have been said by someone else, just look it up. Here's a sampling of other people's deaths, which of course in no way diminishes the deaths of the apostles by martyrdom.
[/quote]

Perhaps I misunderstood my own point, but I *thought* I was talking about people praying and blessing their torturers.

[MithLuin]

Well, yes. I don't happen to have a detailed martyrology at hand for faiths other than Catholicism, so I was not able to come up with a specific example of that in my brief search. But my point was that rather than bickering about what a non-Catholic martyr said at death...why not present some examples?

But if you need an actual example of that, I'll put forward Elisabeth Eliot and Rachel Saint. Elisabeth was widowed when her husband Jim was murdered by the Amazon natives he was trying to establish contact with as a missionary. Rachel's brother Nate was murdered in the same incident. The two women learned the language and traveled themselves to the village of the people who had killed their family members. They forgave the murderers and converted the tribe to Christianity. Nate's son Steve became very close with Mincaye, the man who murdered his father. True, I don't know what the 5 men said in the moment of their deaths. Probably some variation on 'why?' as they weren't really expecting a friendly conversation to end in their getting speared. But...who knows?

The documentary is called 'Beyond the Gates of Splendor', but the 5 martyred missionaries in Ecuador were big news at the time it happened.

Anyway, all of these people are Christians, but not Catholics. The Amish are very big on forgiveness in the face of violence as well.