If You Found Out That Osama Bin Laden Was In Heaven Today

[Blind]

I said I would be happy about it. I am not as versed as most on here but I think like most that if he gets in its an open gate to all who turn to God in the last minutes of their lives like we all do when things go bad for us. I know first hand that is what happens from my own experience. But my question is this, first off can anyone be baptized with out going through the steps of becoming a Catholic to, for a lack of a better word, qualify for purgatory? I read that any Catholic can preform an emergency baptism. So that would mean that their had to be a Catholic that was close to him. Do Catholics recognize all Christian Religions as being the same as Catholicism? If so does that mean I can switch to a non-denominational Church and still be a Catholic? It seems that there would have to be more then just a baptism or a confession for Osama to become a Catholic. And how many times can someone be baptized? It seems like everyone would want a pre-death baptism since it erases all sins or does confession do the same? I thought some sins couldn't be forgiven in confession but I am not sure and need to research it more. Does God punish you for sinning over and over continually doing the same sin? Sorry for all the questions but this is a good topic for me to learn about sin, confession and baptism.

[MithLuin]

Wow that's a lot of questions! Let me try to break that down....

[quote name='Blind' timestamp='1304441164' post='2236368']
But my question is this, first off can anyone be baptized with out going through the steps of becoming a Catholic to, for a lack of a better word, qualify for purgatory? [/quote]

Emergency baptisms are permitted without the typical preparation for reception into the Church. So, if someone is in danger of death, they don't have to go through RCIA. The person would have to request baptism, though - you don't typically run around baptizing dying people at random.

If you 'qualify' for purgatory, you qualify for heaven. See more below....

[quote]I read that any Catholic can perform an emergency baptism. So that would mean that their had to be a Catholic that was close to him. [/quote]

Actually, according to the Church, any person may perform an emergency baptism, even a non-Christian who is not baptized. They must have the intent of baptizing the person and use the correct words/form, but there is no requirement for a priest or even a Catholic or Christian to be present. Again....in an emergency. You're not supposed to just walk up to a random stranger and request baptism.

[quote]Do Catholics recognize all Christian Religions as being the same as Catholicism? If so does that mean I can switch to a non-denominational Church and still be a Catholic? It seems that there would have to be more then just a baptism or a confession for Osama to become a Catholic. [/quote]

In short, no, other Christian denominations are not considered to be Catholic, either by the Catholic Church or by themselves. Their members are our brothers and sisters in Christ, and we [i]do[/i] share a common baptism. So, if you are baptized (say) Methodist and then convert to being a Catholic, the Catholic Church would recognize you as a baptized Christian already. But if you leave the Church...you left the Church. Confession would likely be involved in your return to the Catholic Church.

For Osama bin Laden to have become a Catholic at the end of his life, he would have had to have had the sincere desire to do so. That seems....unlikely, though of course nothing is impossible with God.

[quote]And how many times can someone be baptized? [/quote]

Only once. If the first one is in doubt, you may receive a conditional baptism, in which something is said like, 'If this person is not already baptized, I baptize him now....'

[quote]It seems like everyone would want a pre-death baptism since it erases all sins or does confession do the same? [/quote]

You are correct, this idea (a deathbed baptism) was at one time quite popular, because of the complete remission of sins that accompanies baptism. The risk, of course, is that if you wait until the end of your life to get baptized, you may wait a little too long and die suddenly before you have the chance to get baptized.

If you are postponing baptism to have free license to do whatever you want (ie, commit as many sins as possible), it can be pointed out that your faith is rather immature. So, the Church has generally discouraged this type of delay. If, however, it happens that an unbaptized person near death requests baptism, the Church is happy to oblige. And yes, the sins of that person are forgiven completely (as is any penalty associated with them), and they are practically guaranteed to go straight to heaven. My father, who is a deacon, once had the opportunity to baptize a dying woman. He considered it one of the most important things he's ever done.

Confession also offers complete forgiveness of sins, but any 'penalty' (reparation) for the sin would still have to be exacted. If not in this life...in purgatory. The idea is not to die with mortal sin on your soul.

[quote]I thought some sins couldn't be forgiven in confession but I am not sure and need to research it more. [/quote]

Any sin may be absolved by a priest in confession. There are some 'exceptions', but they apply more to the priest than the penitent. The priest may not lift an excommunication in confession unless he's been given permission to do so by his bishop. This most often comes up with the 'automatic' excommunications that result from getting an abortion. A priest may not offer absolution to a person whose sins include sexual sins with that priest. And a priest will likely refuse to offer absolution if the person confesses the sins, but does not repent of them (ie, says '...but I'm not sorry I did it.') Jesus also labeled the sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit to be unforgivable, though I'm not entirely clear on what he meant there.

[quote]Does God punish you for sinning over and over continually doing the same sin? [/quote]

Yes. Habitual sins are still sins. However, they may not be mortal sins if you have truly lost the ability to resist that you would have if you weren't trapped in that sin. The graces provided in the sacrament of confession can help a person to break free from that. Venial sins are sins, but not deadly the way mortal sins are. Basically, in confession, you should mention if it's a sin you struggle with constantly rather than a one-time sin. The priest may be able to offer you some good advice on how to begin to overcome that particular sin - a short prayer to say in the moment of temptation, for example.

Sin is its own punishment, of course; God doesn't have to punish us when we've already put ourselves in chains.

Hope some of that was helpful!

[Blind]

thank you so much MithLuin for taking the time to break all that down and it is all helpful.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1304436516' post='2236339']
Bin Laden has as much chance as John Gotti did. John Gotti wasn't allowed to have a Mass of Christian Burial [as was said by the Roman Catholic Diocese of Brooklynn] because his actions on this earth were so vicious and evil in nature.[/quote]
John Gotti has a better chance, because we know he was baptised. Of course, we can't say either are there (or aren't) with any degree of certainty.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='XIX' timestamp='1304385785' post='2236059']
Certainly not. As I understand it, we should only pray for a saint's intercession by name who has been canonized. Even asking for JP2's intercession was not a safe move until he was beatified.
[/quote]
If this is true, how can people get miracles attributed to their intercession, if you can't ask them for intercession?

[Jaime]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1304478096' post='2236708']
If this is true, how can people get miracles attributed to their intercession, if you can't ask them for intercession?
[/quote]

Where's that stupid like button?

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1304481117' post='2236732']
Where's that stupid like button?
[/quote]
[size="1"][IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/like.gif[/IMG] [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showuser=2367"]Hot Stuff[/url] stupid likes this.[/size]

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1304484656' post='2236754']
[size="1"][img]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/like.gif[/img] [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showuser=2367"]Hot Stuff[/url] stupid likes this.[/size]
[/quote]

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1304347566' post='2235738']
I suspect that everyone will be surprised by at least someone who winds up in heaven. I have no idea about the state of bin Laden's soul at his death, so I cannot predict. However, the man did preach a lot of hatred during his life, so if he did not repent prior to his death....well....chances are not good.

God will not 'let in' anyone who has not been transformed. So, should I get to heaven, I will not be afraid of meeting anyone there.
[/quote]

I think people of times past will be surprised at who gets in, but I suspect the people of our age will be surprised at who doesn't make the cut.

In times past everyone focused on God's justice and wrath. Today we focus so much on God's mercy that we forget that there is such a thing as justice and wrath. We all want to sing and hold hands, and we're afraid to stand up for truth. Don't let complacency overtake us!

Peace,
Joe

PS: I didn't think that there was anything wrong about your post, I just fear for the people of our time because they rely too much on God's mercy.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1304450462' post='2236442']
John Gotti has a better chance, because we know he was baptised. Of course, we can't say either are there (or aren't) with any degree of certainty.
[/quote]

John Gotti may have been baptised by the Roman Catholic Diocese of Brooklynn denied him a Catholic Burial and made it clear that due to his actions and unrepentant attitude he was not Catholic and was not going to be honored so Bin Laden has as good of a chance as him of being recognized as a Saint, which is NEVER.

[Amppax]

[quote name='MagiDragon' timestamp='1304525146' post='2236860']
I think people of times past will be surprised at who gets in, but I suspect the people of our age will be surprised at who doesn't make the cut.

In times past everyone focused on God's justice and wrath. Today we focus so much on God's mercy that we forget that there is such a thing as justice and wrath. We all want to sing and hold hands, and we're afraid to stand up for truth. Don't let complacency overtake us!

Peace,
Joe

PS: I didn't think that there was anything wrong about your post, I just fear for the people of our time because they rely too much on God's mercy.
[/quote]

Both are equally important, you can't rely too much on God's mercy, nor can you focus too much on God's justice. He is infinitely merciful and infinitely just!

Edited May 4, 2011 by Amppax

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1304527102' post='2236875']
John Gotti may have been baptised by the Roman Catholic Diocese of Brooklynn denied him a Catholic Burial and made it clear that due to his actions and unrepentant attitude he was not Catholic and was not going to be honored so Bin Laden has as good of a chance as him of being recognized as a Saint, which is NEVER.
[/quote]
I understand that he was (publicly) not in good standing at the time of his death. However, we know for a fact that he was given the grace imparted by baptism, which gives him at least a small leg up.

[Nihil Obstat]

And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1304531614' post='2236925']
I understand that he was (publicly) not in good standing at the time of his death. However, we know for a fact that he was given the grace imparted by baptism, which gives him at least a small leg up.
[/quote]

That's the point, John Gotti will never be considered a Saint by the Church and neither will Bin Laden.

[Selah]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1304484656' post='2236754']
[size="1"][IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/like.gif[/IMG] [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showuser=2367"]Hot Stuff[/url] stupid likes this.[/size]
[/quote]

How do you even do that? Bah.