If You Found Out That Osama Bin Laden Was In Heaven Today

[Selah]

Honestly?

I wouldn't care. It's not up to me.

[Nihil Obstat]

I beat the Vatican to it.

[HopefulBride]

This right here is reason number one why I love Phatmass. No one else understand why I want to pray for the soul of the man.

No one but he and God knows how his last moments were (whether or not he repented and had true remorse for his wrongdoings) However I hope with all my heart that he did and I hope for the conversion of others like him.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1304347066' post='2235731']
I was thinking about this last night as I went to bed... I would rejoice heartily if I found out that Osama Bin Laden was in heaven. Why? Because I would know without a shadow of a doubt that he repented before his death... and from the greatest sinners come the greatest saints.
[/quote]
This. I would rejoice, because it would be an amazing testament to the infinite mercy of God, and it would prove that there was hope for everyone.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

If I found out that Osama Bin Laden was in heaven today, I would be pleased, because would show that God's mercy is sp great. and so unfathomable to humans, that it might mean I had a chance to be in heaven someday, too.

[Socrates]

Oh how I thank Thee Oh Lord, that I am not like unto these sinners who rejoice that Obama's dead!

[Socrates]

Yes, we should rejoice in the unlikely event that bin Laden had a miraculous conversion just before his death and was saved.

But in the likely event that he did not repent, the pains of hell would be God's justice, which we should not begrudge.

We should pray for his soul, no more or less than we should pray for the soul of Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Charles Manson (or fill in your mass murderer of choice). Still no reason to presume the salvation of any of those, but all things are possible with God.

As for bin Laden becoming a canonized saint we pray to for intercession, I think we can safely say the chances of that are nil, as we have no evidence of his life at any point being in any way exemplary of Catholic virtue (much less of him becoming Christian).

It's fashionable for modern Catholics to say that everyone will end up saved in the end.

However, everything Jesus Christ taught about Hell indicates that it is real, and people can and do indeed go there.
If everybody, no matter ho, wicked, ends up saved, then Christ sure wasted a lot of breath teaching about Hell and how to avoid going there.

While it might seem to some pious and "merciful" to presume the salvation of all, it seems to me an easy mentality for a lax moral and religious life. After all, if even mass-murderers will end up saved, getting through the narrow gates must be easy cruising for the rest of us!

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1304346784' post='2235726']
I would think it would be reasonable to imagine he would be in purgatory if indeed he repented and was saved.
[/quote]
Even if he had some kind of miraculous repentance, it would seem it would take some time to be purified of his past sins.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1304347274' post='2235736']
What if he had been baptized yesterday? (just a hypothetical)
[/quote]

Then his sins would be washed away

[Jaime]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1304359760' post='2235828']

As for bin Laden becoming a canonized saint we pray to for intercession, I think we can safely say the chances of that are nil, as we have no evidence of his life at any point being in any way exemplary of Catholic virtue (much less of him becoming Christian).


Even if he had some kind of miraculous repentance, it would seem it would take some time to be purified of his past sins.
[/quote]


You do understand that anyone in heaven is a saint whether canonized by the Church or not. And so if in God's infinite mercy, he was received in heaven, we could most certainly ask for his intercessions.

[Nihil Obstat]

He could not be canonized because he did not display heroic virtue. I'm sure there are many in heaven that we would not expect. For instance, I read that Oscar Wilde was baptized on his deathbed, and presumably also made a confession. He may well be in heaven, and it is quite reasonable at least to hope for Purgatory- but he cannot be canonized because he did not display heroic virtue in most of his life. His canonization would be a scandal.
The Church canonizes saints as many ways for us, so that we may see their example and imitate it. Augustine led a terrible life early on, but he repented and spent many many years making amends; that was his heroic virtue. Oscar Wilde may very well have done the same (we can't know), but he did not. Most of his life was spent in sin, and only very briefly at the end did he return.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1304362340' post='2235846']
He could not be canonized because he did not display heroic virtue. I'm sure there are many in heaven that we would not expect. For instance, I read that Oscar Wilde was baptized on his deathbed, and presumably also made a confession. He may well be in heaven, and it is quite reasonable at least to hope for Purgatory- but he cannot be canonized because he did not display heroic virtue in most of his life. His canonization would be a scandal.
The Church canonizes saints as many ways for us, so that we may see their example and imitate it. Augustine led a terrible life early on, but he repented and spent many many years making amends; that was his heroic virtue. Oscar Wilde may very well have done the same (we can't know), but he did not. Most of his life was spent in sin, and only very briefly at the end did he return.
[/quote]

Although there are cases of death bed conversion [i]being[/i] heroic virtue. For example, St. Dismas.

For the sake of hypotheticals, [i]if[/i] Bin Laden had converted prior to his death in the face of grave opposition (to say the least) of his homeland and followers, and had suffered death at their hands... I think that might count for heroic virtue.

As it is, the above scenario did not happen. Perhaps he repented and converted... but that action would not have been the leading cause of his ultimate demise and therefore would not have employed heroic virtue.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1304363446' post='2235854']
Although there are cases of death bed conversion [i]being[/i] heroic virtue. For example, St. Dismas.

For the sake of hypotheticals, [i]if[/i] Bin Laden had converted prior to his death in the face of grave opposition (to say the least) of his homeland and followers, and had suffered death at their hands... I think that might count for heroic virtue.

As it is, the above scenario did not happen. Perhaps he repented and converted... but that action would not have been the leading cause of his ultimate demise and therefore would not have employed heroic virtue.
[/quote]
That's true. It would have to be very public and well known though. In the case of Oscar Wilde, he's still held up as a gay rights hero, and it seems to me that a lot of people try to minimize the fact of his deathbed reversion. Public scandal requires public repentance.
Bin Laden I though, in order to have displayed heroic virtue, would have had to have been dramatic enough maybe to be martyred for his repentance, or something equally public.
Interesting thing to think about. I wish that's what had happened.

[Mr.Cat]

I would not care either way. But it seems we may have made a martyr for their cause.

[Socrates]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1304361248' post='2235839']
You do understand that anyone in heaven is a saint whether canonized by the Church or not.[/quote]
True.

[quote]And so if in God's infinite mercy, he was received in heaven, we could most certainly ask for his intercessions.[/quote]
So, should I start praying for the heavenly intercession of Saint Adolf Hitler?


It's one thing to pray for the souls of all men, but to pray for the intersession of men who publicly lived lives of great evil while on earth, with no apparent repentance, seems to me extremely presumptuous at best.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1304362340' post='2235846']
He could not be canonized because he did not display heroic virtue. I'm sure there are many in heaven that we would not expect. For instance, I read that Oscar Wilde was baptized on his deathbed, and presumably also made a confession. He may well be in heaven, and it is quite reasonable at least to hope for Purgatory- but he cannot be canonized because he did not display heroic virtue in most of his life. His canonization would be a scandal.
The Church canonizes saints as many ways for us, so that we may see their example and imitate it. Augustine led a terrible life early on, but he repented and spent many many years making amends; that was his heroic virtue. Oscar Wilde may very well have done the same (we can't know), but he did not. Most of his life was spent in sin, and only very briefly at the end did he return.
[/quote]

I never said he would be canonized.

Also if its true that Oscar Wilde was baptized on his death bed, why would it be reasonable to at least hope for purgatory?



[b][url=""]1263[/url][/b] By Baptism [i]all sins[/i] are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.[sup]66[/sup] In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam's sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.

[b][url=""]1265[/url][/b] Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte "a new creature," an adopted son of God, who has become a "partaker of the divine nature,"[sup]69[/sup] member of Christ and co-heir with him,[sup]70[/sup] and a temple of the Holy Spirit.[sup]71[/sup]


The Church is pretty clear about the sacrament. When a person is baptized, their sins are all forgiven.