Bin Laden Dead!

[kafka]

I mean for the love of God, imagine if any of us were a relative to one of the victims of one of his acts of terror? For example the 9/11 bombings. Do you think these people dont desire the Justice that is God to be swept over this severely evil man? If I had a beautiful wife or child who was lost in one of his disgusting acts of terror I would be angry and crave God's justice on him if he did nothing to repent.

Is his mere death enough when he helped kill thousands, and did other countless harms and disorders to the human race without any signs of repentance or any acts of penance?

God's Justice is His Mercy which is His Love. God is Love. God is Justice. God is Mercy.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' timestamp='1304390001' post='2236116']
Christians just love.
[/quote]

Amen brother.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1304390272' post='2236122']
I mean for the love of God, imagine if any of us were a relative to one of the victims of one of his acts of terror? For example the 9/11 bombings. Do you think these people dont desire the Justice that is God to be swept over this severely evil man? If I had a beautiful wife or child who was lost in one of his disgusting acts of terror I would be angry and crave God's justice on him if he did nothing to repent.[/quote]

Sure they desire justice but so do the thousands of Iraqis that were killed by US Soldiers in Iraq. When Steven D. Green murdered Abeer Qassim Hamza Al-Janabi [and her family], her village wanted to do the US Soldiers, what the US Soldiers did to them, in the name of justice and round in circles it goes. Thousands upon thousands of civilians that had nothing to do with Bin Laden lost loved ones during the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, where is their justice? So we got one guy that we funded along with the Muhajadin and executed him in the name of "justice for the victims". Steve D. Green is just one instance and he only got life in prison after the rape and murder of an entire family, including under age children.

[Jaime]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1304390272' post='2236122']
I mean for the love of God, imagine if any of us were a relative to one of the victims of one of his acts of terror? For example the 9/11 bombings. Do you think these people dont desire the Justice that is God to be swept over this severely evil man? If I had a beautiful wife or child who was lost in one of his disgusting acts of terror I would be angry and crave God's justice on him if he did nothing to repent.

Is his mere death enough when he helped kill thousands, and did other countless harms and disorders to the human race without any signs of repentance or any acts of penance?

God's Justice is His Mercy which is His Love. God is Love. God is Justice. God is Mercy.
[/quote]

Which part of "pray for your enemy" are you having a hard time with?

[kafka]

Sacred Scripture taken together as a whole paints a different picture.

It is sad that another sinner died unrepentant, but it is good that he has been killed. It is a good deed what the soldiers did. God's people rejoice in the victory and the downfall of their severe enemies. God's people hate evil and rejoice in its destruction, but they do not rejoice in the evil itself. Those in Heaven are not sad over the fact that some are in Hell because it is Just and Merciful and Loving that God does this. And even this is a source of joy for those in Heaven, because all that God does is Good and worthy of rejoicing.

Christian charity informs just deeds and it is in a real sense a right, a justice, that good people should be happy at his death, especially those who have been and were being afflicted by him.

I dont know what else to say other than read and interpret God's Word as a whole.

done here.

Edited May 3, 2011 by kafka

[Jaime]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1304392036' post='2236154']
Sacred Scripture taken together as a whole paints a different picture.

It is sad that another sinner died unrepentant, but it is good that he has been killed. It is a good deed what the soldiers did.[b] God's people rejoice in the victory and the downfall of their severe enemies. God's people hate evil and rejoice in its destruction, but they do not rejoice in the evil itself. [/b] Those in Heaven are not sad over the fact that some are in Hell because it is Just and Merciful and Loving that God does this. And even this is a source of joy for those in Heaven, because all that God does is Good and worthy of rejoicing.

Christian charity informs just deeds and it is in a real sense a right, a justice, that good people should be happy at his death, especially those who have been and were being afflicted by him.

I dont know what else to say other than read and interpret God's Word as a whole.

done here.
[/quote]

Is it likely that he died unrepentant? Probably but its foolish to "know" this as fact. Also, by all accounts he believed that he was in fact doing this for his faith. He was very very wrong but you nor I have any idea how that comes into play within the infinite mercy of Christ.

BTW the statement in bold is in direct opposition to what the Vatican has stated about his death.[quote][font="Arial, Helvetica"][size="2"]In the face of a man's death, a Christian never rejoices, but reflects on the serious responsibilities of each person before God and before men, and hopes and works so that every event may be the occasion for the further growth of peace and not of hatred," the spokesman said.[/size][/font][/quote] What you are doing in creating your own understanding of the Faith is tantamount to protestantism

[kafka]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1304392772' post='2236168']
Is it likely that he died unrepentant? Probably but its foolish to "know" this as fact. Also, by all accounts he believed that he was in fact doing this for his faith. He was very very wrong but you nor I have any idea how that comes into play within the infinite mercy of Christ.

BTW the statement in bold is in direct opposition to what the Vatican has stated about his death. What you are doing in creating your own understanding of the Faith is tantamount to protestantism
[/quote]
and you are interpreting the Vatican statement which is not a teaching of faith and morals in your own light. It is not an act of Magisterium.

And you are interpreting Sacred Scripture in your own light. Its my view of the Faith against your view of the Faith. You are not the mouthpiece of the Catholic Church.

As far as his lack of repentance, I'm basing it on the fact that he never showed any signs of repentance during his life. He knew what he was doing. He was severely evil. And the way God's grace works is just and merciful. He had his entire life to choose to repent. God gave him graces while he was alive throughout his severely evil life and he did not choose to repent. So how could he repent within a few short moments before his death? Christ's mercy is infinite and miraculous, but it is also just, ordered, and so on. And a human person is limited by space and time.

So I dont know for absolute sure, but it is reasonable to say that he did not repent. This isnt extreme or Protestant.

I am a Catholic, not a Protestant. And you are seemingly provoking and harrassing me, which is fine if that is what you intend, but my posts do not warrant a rebuke at this point and neither does my spirit.

Edited May 3, 2011 by kafka

[Jaime]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1304393288' post='2236177']
and you are interpreting the Vatican statement which is not a teaching of faith and morals in your own light. It is not an act of Magisterium.

And you are interpreting Sacred Scripture in your own light. Its my view of the Faith against your view of the Faith. You are not the mouthpiece of the Catholic Church.

As far as his lack of repentance, I'm basing it on the fact that he never showed any signs of repentance during his life. He knew what he was doing. He was severely evil. And the way God's grace works is just and merciful. He had his entire life to choose to repent. God gave him graces while he was alive throughout his severely evil life and he did not choose to repent. So how could he repent within a few short moments before his death? Christ's mercy is infinite and miraculous, but it is also just, ordered, and so on. And a human person is limited by space and time.

So I dont know for absolute sure, but it is reasonable to say that he did not repent. This isnt extreme or Protestant.

I am a Catholic, not a Protestant. And you are seemingly provoking and harrassing me, which is fine if that is what you intend, but my posts do not warrant a rebuke at this point and neither does my spirit.
[/quote]

Kafka do you honestly think that you have a better understanding of Catholic teaching than the Vatican? And how is the Vatican's statement not one of faith?

[kafka]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1304393785' post='2236191']
Kafka do you honestly think that you have a better understanding of Catholic teaching than the Vatican? And how is the Vatican's statement not one of faith?
[/quote]
all I meant was it was not an act of Magisterium. And it was made by one person. I cant imagine that every single human person who lives at the Vatican agrees with the statement. Father Lombardi is the head of the Press Office, not a Pope and or Pope and Bishops exercising their Magisterial authority.

And I did say that it is sad that a sinner dies, it is a sobering occasion, however given the circumstance it is also good and worthy of rejoicing.

[Jaime]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1304394190' post='2236195']
all I meant was it was not an act of Magisterium. And it was made by one person. I cant imagine that every single human person who lives at the Vatican agrees with the statement. Father Lombardi is the head of the Press Office, not a Pope and or Pope and Bishops exercising their Magisterial authority.

And I did say that it is sad that a sinner dies, it is a sobering occasion, however given the circumstance it is also good and worthy of rejoicing.
[/quote]

Perhaps not everyone but I can promise you this, On a matter as serious as this, nothing is being said by Father Lombardi without the express permission and agreement of the Holy Father. There is no chance that Father Lombardi went rogue about Osama bin Laden

[kafka]

and I want to add jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) that you are unjust for pinning me agaisnt the Vatican, on a statement which is not a Magisterial teaching of faith and morals. Catholics do have some ability to make moral judgments for themselves, and interpret Tradition-Scripture-Magisterium in light of current events:

Pope John XXIII: "Differences of opinion in the application of principles can sometimes arise even among sincere Catholics. When this happens, they should be careful not to lose their respect and esteem for each other. Instead, they should strive to find points of agreement for effective and suitable action, and not wear themselves out in interminable arguments, and, under pretext of the better or the best, omit to do the good that is possible and therefore obligatory."

Colorado Catholic Conference: "In some moral matters the use of reason allows for a legitimate diversity in our prudential judgments. Catholic voters may differ, for example, on what constitutes the best immigration policy, how to provide universal health care, or affordable housing. Catholics may even have differing judgments on the state's use of the death penalty or the decision to wage a just war. The morality of such questions lies not in what is done (the moral object), but in the motive and circumstances. Therefore, because these prudential judgments do not involve a direct choice of something evil, and take into consideration various goods, it is possible for Catholic voters to arrive at different, even opposing judgments."

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: "Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia."

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1304394696' post='2236198']
and I want to add jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) that [b]you are unjust for pinning me agaisnt the Vatican[/b], on a statement which is not a Magisterial teaching of faith and morals. Catholics do have some ability to make moral judgments for themselves, and interpret Tradition-Scripture-Magisterium in light of current events:

[/quote]
Pots and kettles, sir. That's all I'm gonna say about that.

[Jaime]

[quote name='kafka' timestamp='1304394696' post='2236198']
and I want to add jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) that you are unjust for pinning me agaisnt the Vatican, on a statement which is not a Magisterial teaching of faith and morals. Catholics do have some ability to make moral judgments for themselves, and interpret Tradition-Scripture-Magisterium in light of current events:

Pope John XXIII: "Differences of opinion in the application of principles can sometimes arise even among sincere Catholics. When this happens, they should be careful not to lose their respect and esteem for each other. Instead, they should strive to find points of agreement for effective and suitable action, and not wear themselves out in interminable arguments, and, under pretext of the better or the best, omit to do the good that is possible and therefore obligatory."

Colorado Catholic Conference: "In some moral matters the use of reason allows for a legitimate diversity in our prudential judgments. Catholic voters may differ, for example, on what constitutes the best immigration policy, how to provide universal health care, or affordable housing. Catholics may even have differing judgments on the state's use of the death penalty or the decision to wage a just war. The morality of such questions lies not in what is done (the moral object), but in the motive and circumstances. Therefore, because these prudential judgments do not involve a direct choice of something evil, and take into consideration various goods, it is possible for Catholic voters to arrive at different, even opposing judgments."

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: "Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia."
[/quote]

How am I unjust? Your statement is in direct contradiction to the statement that the Vatican made.

you say (with seeming authority)
[quote] God's people rejoice in the victory and the downfall of their severe enemies. God's people hate evil and rejoice in its destruction, but they do not rejoice in the evil itself. [/quote]

The Vatican statement says [quote][font="Arial, Helvetica"][size="2"]In the face of a man's death, a Christian never rejoices, but reflects on the serious responsibilities of each person before God and before men, and hopes and works so that every event may be the occasion for the further growth of peace and not of hatred"[/size][/font][b][font="Arial, Helvetica"][size="2"] [/size][/font][/b][/quote]


If you don't think that the statement "[b][font="Arial, Helvetica"][size="2"]In the face of a man's death, a Christian never rejoices, but reflects on the serious responsibilities of each person before God and before men, and hopes and works so that every event may be the occasion for the further growth of peace and not of hatred" [/size][/font][/b][font="Arial, Helvetica"][size="2"]is a matter of faith, well I don't know what to tell you Kafka.

The rest of the stuff you're quoting has nothing to do with anything here. I think you know that. You pit yourself against the Vatican on this and you really don't have a leg to stand on.
[/size][/font]

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1304391771' post='2236150']
Sure they desire justice but so do the thousands of Iraqis that were killed by US Soldiers in Iraq. When Steven D. Green murdered Abeer Qassim Hamza Al-Janabi [and her family], her village wanted to do the US Soldiers, what the US Soldiers did to them, in the name of justice [b]and round in circles it goes[/b]. Thousands upon thousands of civilians that had nothing to do with Bin Laden lost loved ones during the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, where is their justice? So we got one guy that we funded along with the Muhajadin and executed him in the name of "justice for the victims". Steve D. Green is just one instance and he only got life in prison after the rape and murder of an entire family, including under age children.
[/quote]

The sad, sad truth. Innocent civilians are slaughtered, vengeance is exacted upon the enemy while thousands of other innocent lives are destroyed and marked off as collateral damage but we can justify it because that scjmbag who killed civilians on our side had to be stopped, but if the deaths of innocents on the other side must be avenged . . . where the hell does it stop?

I don't know the exact reasons why Bin Laden became a terrorist and why he made himself an enemy of the West, but I know that among all the good that America has done (just so we're clear here I am acknowledging America [i]has[/i] done good) they've also done some slimy and evil things (as about every government that has ever existed has). I can see how anger towards such an entity can be justified, and how someone may want to put a stop to such abuses propagated by it. It abso-flooping-lutely does not justify the cowardly massacre of thousands and the Sept 11th attacks were totally misappropriated, but it makes me wonder, why do we think it's to kill civilians as well? Now maybe you could argue the US at least tries to avoid civilian casualties rather than directly attacking them, but still isn't that just a faulty "means justify the ends" thing? Maybe in a really twisted and warped way Islamic terrorists are trying to destroy an evil institution and they either see civilians as active members of that institution and thus "fair game" or maybe they just see it as the only way to bring truth to the world and thus the means justify the ends to them.

Lest I become accused of being a terrorist sympathizer, I think it's just too easy to say "floopy it, he was crazy, he was evil, he's dead now thank God." I think when we refuse to investigate what really motivates an evil SOB, and make efforts to follow his logic (as insane and warped as it is) then we really do a disservice to the world because I don't think you can stop something without understanding it. Ideologies transcend death, and rather than exterminating everyone who holds to that ideology (which is impossible) maybe we can understand it, and we can prevent the cancer from metastasizing throughout humankind.

I know there will never truly be peace on Earth until the Lord returns, but we can't take that as an excuse to raise hell against our enemies in the interim. Can we? I mean I get the logic: he comes over here and kills our people we need to go kill him so that the slaughter stops . . . for a while at least. Because then someone on the other side is gonna look at the corpses of their friends and family and they're gonna look fro someone to kill and it's gonna keep going.

It's a wonder to me how Christianity survived the first few centuries. I mean they did [i]not[/i] fight back but gave their bodies to the lions and their souls and wills to God. It seems to go against all common sense. [i]If you don't fight back they're going to destroy all of you[/i]. I guess that's why there could never be an authentic Christian temporal government as it would sorta be a suicide state.

These are just my characteristically incoherent thoughts. I just can't make myself dance over a man's grave no matter how evil he is, and I can't help but cringing inside when I see others doing just that. Christ said to love your enemies, and to pray for them, and to turn the other cheek and to do all these things that seem 100% ridiculous. There are asteriks on somethings and loopholes do exist. But sometimes they do not and we shouldn't look for them.

I pray for the repose of his soul, and all of his victims' souls, and people who are cruel towards one another, and people who hate God, and people who love Him, and you and everybody. Is that unchristian? I'm seriously asking this. I don't even find it difficult to pray for him. Am I messed up? Should I want him to be eternally tortured? I mean I will be shocked as hell if I see Hitler and Nietzsche and Bin Laden when I stroll through the pearly gates, but praise be to God if He is redeeming them. And also praise to be God if He sees eternal separation from Him as a fitting sentence.

God help us all put down our arms. Most compassionate heart of Jesus, have mercy on us and on the whole world. I beg that you immerse the entirety of humanity in the unfathomable depths or your love and forgiveness even for the most undeserving of us. Even though none of us deserve salvation, I place my trust in your Divine Mercy.

I know I'm not eloquent, and I'm sorry, but these things force me to take a good hard look at the most profound depths of the human soul. I'll stop now, but God please have mercy on us. Hosanna on high.

[dominicansoul]

you guyz are sheep...that monster isn't dead...



































[size="1"](yeah, i'm a conspiracy theorist..)[/size]