Evangelisation Needed In The Uk

[Antoniette]

Everytime i receive a letter, or visit my friend at St.Helens Carmel, I am at a loss to explain why young women aren't beating down their door as even delayed vocations are considered, . Granted, they aren't Tridentine, but they and Kirk's Edge are 1990, and very traditional. They recently received an extern sister, but could use more choir nuns. They are fully habited, enclosed and- I have come to know two prioresses- Mother Paula (now sub-prioress) and Mother Margaret, both loving and caring and [b][/b]believing[b][/b], humorous and happy. i was wondering if traditionally minded girls from the new Anglican ordinariate might be a source of vocations. Any serious contemplative vocations seem to be going to the Tridentine Franciscans who moved into Lanherne, after the Carmelites there merged with the St. Helens Carmel. I can't believe the English Carmels are headed to the path of the Belgium Beguines, or the American Shakers.

Does anyone see a different path for these English Carmels?

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='Antoniette' timestamp='1304908894' post='2238896']
Everytime i receive a letter, or visit my friend at St.Helens Carmel, I am at a loss to explain why young women aren't beating down their door as even delayed vocations are considered, . Granted, they aren't Tridentine, but they and Kirk's Edge are 1990, and very traditional. They recently received an extern sister, but could use more choir nuns. They are fully habited, enclosed and- I have come to know two prioresses- Mother Paula (now sub-prioress) and Mother Margaret, both loving and caring and believing, humorous and happy. i was wondering if traditionally minded girls from the new Anglican ordinariate might be a source of vocations. Any serious contemplative vocations seem to be going to the Tridentine Franciscans who moved into Lanherne, after the Carmelites there merged with the St. Helens Carmel. I can't believe the English Carmels are headed to the path of the Belgium Beguines, or the American Shakers.

Does anyone see a different path for these English Carmels?
[/quote]


I think Carmel as a whole has been going through a major shake-up for sometime now. Don't forget that they went through a lot between the end of Vatican 2 and 1990, when the first revised constitutions were promulgated. There was a lot of contention over the whole process and eventual outcome and there are still hard feelings today in some of the Carmels about the way things were handled, on both sides of the fence. I have been in both 1990 and 1991 Carmels and each side has their own point of view about how it was all handled and believe it are not, there are still hurt feelings today about it. There is a good essay on this called the [url="http://www.baltimorecarmel.org/history/The%20Fractured%20Face%20of%20Carmel.htm"]'Fractured Face of Carmel[/url]" but even that essay was written in 1997 and a lot has happened in the implementation of the two versions of the constitutions since then. And because every Carmelite monastery is autonomous, each one has implemented the changes in a slightly different way, making a different impact on each one.

Although the 1990s are probably slightly more in synch with each other than the 1991s, even with these monasteries there is a lot of difference in the way they actually interpret the constitutions. St Helen's is very different from Kirk Edge, although they are probably more alike than either of them compared to say, Wolverhampton or Quidenham. And even in the US, the charism of St Teresa is lived out in a variety of ways, some subtle and some quite obvious. The Australian Carmels are probably more cohesive but they are all 1991s and their association is very strong. Even here though, there are major difference in the way the life is lived.

How the English Carmels will survive might depend in part on the women who become superiors over time. Some communities tend to keep the same Prioress for many terms of office simply because of fear (in my opinion) of someone different and unknown, while some change frequently because they can't seem to find the right balance. Although the communities are technically self-governing, the superior (like any manager of an organization) plays an important part in the potential future of the community over the long run. I have seen a good superior restore the harmony of a community and inspire them with vision for the future and I have seen the opposite.

I can see some of the UK Carmels merging together, although they resist this quite fiercely at times, understandably so, as each community has its own unique 'personality' or 'culture' and it isn't easy to mix two or more of them together. I have seen it done in the UK though when both sides are sensitive to the fears and needs of the other. St Helen's and Kirk Edge are the last two 1990s Carmels in the UK and they have discussed the possibility of a merger over the years, but neither community wants to give up their own monastery. Kirk Edge has a very old and traditional building and grounds, and St Helen's has one that was more or less built and supported by their diocese so they don't want to abandon this. It is a dilemma and only God knows whether they will both get enough vocations to allow them to continue separately or if one of the other will finally have too few sisters to continue.

As always, the answer is prayer and trust in God to provide what is necessary for the future. All religious communities exist to serve Him and glorify Him, so they are His responsibility to take care of! Our job is to pray for them all

[JulianofLdn]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1304917473' post='2238954']

Although the 1990s are probably slightly more in synch with each other than the 1991s, even with these monasteries there is a lot of difference in the way they actually interpret the constitutions. St Helen's is very different from Kirk Edge, although they are probably more alike than either of them compared to say, Wolverhampton or Quidenham. [/quote]

Perhaps this is off-topic - and may well deserve its own thread - but this statement interests me. As somebody who has only just discovered that a range of monastic life exists, I can't get my head around the idea that monasteries within the same tradition can differ so dramatically. Their horariums appear similar, they are enclosed, they are Carmelite... and now my lack of knowledge kicks in! Could you explain a little about how they can be so different?

As to the topic of this thread... the more visible and more active our religious are, the better. The two nuns seen at the Royal Wedding were the topic of a lot of discussion (especially since one of them was suspected of being a secret service ninja nun! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/like.gif[/img]) ; a few comments were along the lines that these must be the last two nuns in England! I think the consecrated religious life - whatever form it takes, contemplative or active - is the single most powerful witness Catholicism has to offer. It can only spark healthy discussion, when our very secular nation sees such a breathtakingly thorough act of faith as to give one's whole life to God.

[faithcecelia]

The UK Carmels are still recovering from being founded! This was something that was talked about quite a lot while I was in Quidenham and really shows how things got carried away. Most were founded from Notting Hill (which was itself founded from Paris) by Mother Mary of Jesus around 1900-1930. They were founded at the request of bishops but with very little financial support - forget Holy Poverty, these lived in dire destitution. Some were very close together, too close really to realistically get enough vocations in a country where Catholicism had only recently been allowed again. My first Novice Mistress (the writer Ruth Burrows) was in an exteremely poor community and says it was impossible to truely live the life when you are having to earn every penny just to eat - she and many others said they believe true contemplative prayer is extremely hard when all you can think about is being cold and hungry. As late as the 1950s a bishop demanded one Carmel closed as the sisters there were starving (literally) and the sisters from there took quite some time to come to terms with what they had gone through. A lot of people were hurt by misguided zeal, and the healing is still in progress.

With the amalgamation that is currently in progress, most of the Carmels will be healthy sizes (2, questionably, too big). In a non-Catholic country (though I do not consider it as non-religious as some of you seem to) I think there are actually LOTS of communities to choose from! Remember, we are a tiny little country As for Latin Mass, try the Isle of Wight - I struggle to find Mass in English, sadly!

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='JulianofLdn' timestamp='1304922569' post='2238970']
Perhaps this is off-topic - and may well deserve its own thread - but this statement interests me. As somebody who has only just discovered that a range of monastic life exists, I can't get my head around the idea that monasteries within the same tradition can differ so dramatically. Their horariums appear similar, they are enclosed, they are Carmelite... and now my lack of knowledge kicks in! Could you explain a little about how they can be so different?

As to the topic of this thread... the more visible and more active our religious are, the better. The two nuns seen at the Royal Wedding were the topic of a lot of discussion (especially since one of them was suspected of being a secret service ninja nun! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/like.gif[/img]) ; a few comments were along the lines that these must be the last two nuns in England! I think the consecrated religious life - whatever form it takes, contemplative or active - is the single most powerful witness Catholicism has to offer. It can only spark healthy discussion, when our very secular nation sees such a breathtakingly thorough act of faith as to give one's whole life to God.
[/quote]

Perhaps the only way I can explain it is to compare communities to families. Every family has its own 'character' (for lack of a better word) and even though there may be a lot of external similarities, there is an essential difference between them. Think of siblings raised in the same home who go on to make families of their own. They might have a lot of the same traditions and customs as their family of birth, but the husband and wife each bring their own differences to the mix, so they are never quite the same as the original or the same as their siblings.... The UK Carmels were founded from two streams, one from France (Mother Mary of Jesus) and the other from Beligum (I am not familiar with that foundress, although I did live in Edmonton, whose Prioress originally came from a Belgian founded monastery). Although all of the UK Carmels will have the similarities of being Carmelite, each stream has its own 'flavour' and then even among all of those founded by one stream (for example, those founded by Mother Mary of Jesus) there are subtle differences simply because of the different mix of sisters and superiors. Remember that Carmel has no 'Mother House'. Once a new foundation is established, the community is autonomous and makes its own decisions. I noticed how similar Wolverhampton and Kirk Edge were in so many ways - and could see the imprint of the same foundress, but I could also see different interpretations in living out the life.

Even in St Teresa's day, the monasteries soon developed their own way of doing things, and history records that she was not even welcome at some of her convents after they had been on their own for awhile! Personalities of the individuals and the superiors combined with the way the Rule and Constitutions are lived out makes each monastery unique.

This doesn't appear to be a uniquely Carmelite phenomenon though because the Benedictine communities I know of (although not as well) each seem to live out their charism and traditions differently as well. DigitalDame could speak to this better but her community originally came from Stanbrook, so they probably have similar traditions, and yet they felt a calling to found a new one. They didn't go to merge with an existing one like Oulton, which only has two nuns left, why? I can't speak for her, but I can only assume that the different traditions made a merger seem unappealing to them. They have their own vision within the Benedictine charism that they want to live out.

I don't know if this makes it clear what I was trying to say?

[StephenFlanagan]

I tried my vocation in 1973 the community I joined was a group of Friars I was 18 when I entered.....I had a great devotion to the Blessed Sacrament the rosay etc. The postulants used to have mass in a room in the priory then discuss the readings...to me it was too modern! I was asked to leave in the end as they said I spent too much time in the church!!! They also said I had [b]matriarchal mother!!! This to me was an awful thing to say to anybody coming from the prior too!!! I was also told they didn't want me to be like another bro who was a sacristan and very bitter!!!! To me that is not a religious community. I tried a second time with a group of brothers where in the end I left and I am so glad I did, to me both these groups were living a lie, I personally feel the church here in the UK does not have a lot to offer yng vocations/older at this present time. [/b]

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='StephenFlanagan' timestamp='1304971378' post='2239223']
I tried my vocation in 1973 the community I joined was a group of Friars I was 18 when I entered.....I had a great devotion to the Blessed Sacrament the rosay etc. The postulants used to have mass in a room in the priory then discuss the readings...to me it was too modern! I was asked to leave in the end as they said I spent too much time in the church!!! They also said I had [b]matriarchal mother!!! This to me was an awful thing to say to anybody coming from the prior too!!! I was also told they didn't want me to be like another bro who was a sacristan and very bitter!!!! To me that is not a religious community. I tried a second time with a group of brothers where in the end I left and I am so glad I did, to me both these groups were living a lie, I personally feel the church here in the UK does not have a lot to offer yng vocations/older at this present time. [/b]
[/quote]


Stephen - that must have been very painful for you. It still goes on in some places. I was told that I was 'too conservative' in my attitude at one place too. And I was laughed at for my love of the Magesterium and the Holy Father. It is a great shame that in trying to improve communities, sometimes they get lost along the way in too much liberalism. But there are still very good and traditional communities left, even in the UK. It just takes a lot of perseverence and seeking to find them sometimes. That's why VS is so great, we can share information with each other and then privately contact others when we want more information that might sound uncharitable if posted in an online forum.

I do think the pendulum is swinging back towards more orthodoxy but it will take time....

[JulianofLdn]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1304930973' post='2238984']
Perhaps the only way I can explain it is to compare communities to families. Every family has its own 'character' (for lack of a better word) and even though there may be a lot of external similarities, there is an essential difference between them. Think of siblings raised in the same home who go on to make families of their own. They might have a lot of the same traditions and customs as their family of birth, but the husband and wife each bring their own differences to the mix, so they are never quite the same as the original or the same as their siblings.... The UK Carmels were founded from two streams, one from France (Mother Mary of Jesus) and the other from Beligum (I am not familiar with that foundress, although I did live in Edmonton, whose Prioress originally came from a Belgian founded monastery). Although all of the UK Carmels will have the similarities of being Carmelite, each stream has its own 'flavour' and then even among all of those founded by one stream (for example, those founded by Mother Mary of Jesus) there are subtle differences simply because of the different mix of sisters and superiors. Remember that Carmel has no 'Mother House'. Once a new foundation is established, the community is autonomous and makes its own decisions. I noticed how similar Wolverhampton and Kirk Edge were in so many ways - and could see the imprint of the same foundress, but I could also see different interpretations in living out the life.

I don't know if this makes it clear what I was trying to say?
[/quote]


It does, thank you very much! And it's very helpful to find out more about how the different Carmels come about.

I suppose I'm still wondering about the minutiae: in other words, how do these different family trends manifest themselves? I understand there's some difference in terms of the enclosure and the grilles; how else does the lives of these Carmels differ? (I'm really showing my ignorance here, LOL!)

[JulianofLdn]

[quote name='StephenFlanagan' timestamp='1304971378' post='2239223']
...[b] I personally feel the church here in the UK does not have a lot to offer yng vocations/older at this present time. [/b]
[/quote]

It'll be interesting to see whether the development of the Ordinariate changes that. There's definitely a bit of a Catholic revival taking place at the moment - albeit on a small scale - and it may well have a knock-on effect on Vocations. Hopefully.

[faithcecelia]

There is also the fact that the Church made some 'stand alone' communities comply after Vat2. For example, Last January I visited a little Poor Clares community. I noticed that their enclosure was rather fluid, plus they ate meat etc. I asked them about some of these and actually they had been a community of Franciscan sisters but then they Church made them become Poor Clares. They are very happy to be so, but still maintain their own traditions too, which is as it should be. In this case, the elderly sister there gets picked up once a week and taken to visit her birth sister who is in a nearby nursing home; this actually fits in better with St Clare's idea of enclosure than St Colette's.

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='JulianofLdn' timestamp='1305008652' post='2239562']
I suppose I'm still wondering about the minutiae: in other words, how do these different family trends manifest themselves? I understand there's some difference in terms of the enclosure and the grilles; how else does the lives of these Carmels differ? (I'm really showing my ignorance here, LOL!)


[/quote]


Well, it's a great question but the only problem is that it would require a book (or at least an essay!) to detail such a thing, especially as I have intimate knowledge of four different ones and second hand knowledge of many more .

If you have specific questions, feel free to email me, but since I am usually on dial up, or on battery for my laptop, to write such a detailed report would be beyond my capabilities right now. Maybe if I move back to the city (which is a possibility if I get the job I am interviewing for this week) then I will be able to spend more time online and can address some things, but of course, it would be a different thread anyway!

The other great way to find out such info - is to go visit them and ask them lots of questions!

[StephenFlanagan]

[quote name='JulianofLdn' timestamp='1305008830' post='2239563']
It'll be interesting to see whether the development of the Ordinariate changes that. There's definitely a bit of a Catholic revival taking place at the moment - albeit on a small scale - and it may well have a knock-on effect on Vocations. Hopefully.
[/quote]


Yes maybe, I hope so, maybe some Anglican orders will come over to the Ordinate?

[StephenFlanagan]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1304989846' post='2239385']
Stephen - that must have been very painful for you. It still goes on in some places. I was told that I was 'too conservative' in my attitude at one place too. And I was laughed at for my love of the Magesterium and the Holy Father. It is a great shame that in trying to improve communities, sometimes they get lost along the way in too much liberalism. But there are still very good and traditional communities left, even in the UK. It just takes a lot of perseverence and seeking to find them sometimes. That's why VS is so great, we can share information with each other and then privately contact others when we want more information that might sound uncharitable if posted in an online forum.

I do think the pendulum is swinging back towards more orthodoxy but it will take time....
[/quote]


Yes it was painful, I remember it as though it was yesterday! But since the second Vatican Council the church has suffered a lot and still is suffering the effects of that council.

[JulianofLdn]

LOL, you're right! I need to get my act into gear, really, and do some visiting [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/blush.gif[/img]. I'm still in the overwhelmed-and-where-do-I-start phase, though! In the meantime, if I have a specific question about a community I'll email you - and thank you for your patience! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/like.gif[/img]
[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1305013073' post='2239574']
Well, it's a great question but the only problem is that it would require a book (or at least an essay!) to detail such a thing, especially as I have intimate knowledge of four different ones and second hand knowledge of many more .

If you have specific questions, feel free to email me, but since I am usually on dial up, or on battery for my laptop, to write such a detailed report would be beyond my capabilities right now. Maybe if I move back to the city (which is a possibility if I get the job I am interviewing for this week) then I will be able to spend more time online and can address some things, but of course, it would be a different thread anyway!

The other great way to find out such info - is to go visit them and ask them lots of questions!
[/quote]

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' timestamp='1304005242' post='2234246']
I've thought about it, but to be honest, I am scared to death at the thought. There is one order there that would consider--the Dominican Sisters of St. Joseph. I don't know if they would consider those that have medication needs, though. However, they are a beautiful community.
[/quote]

All you can do is ask. Sister Michelle is the prioress. (I don't know the name of the vocation director, or if they even have one since the community is small.) Sister Michelle's personal email address is on the Community Web site.

The Community accepted Sadora (Laetitia Crucis), who is blind in one eye, and is legally blind in the other eye. However, Sadora is wonderful and ANY community would be blessed to have her. However, the ND's turned her down after barely talking to her, because they felt that her vision problems would get in the way of "classroom management." However, this turned out to be okay, as Sadora wasn't THAT interested in being a traditional classroom teacher. Actually, Sadora told me one that it was sometmes easier if a commnity turned her down immediately, so she did not waste her time discerning that community.

I have no idea how the community feels about medications (especially since I don't know exactly what medications you take--which is fine--it's none of my business). I've lost track of how long you have to be a resident of the the UK before being covered by UK national health--national health perhaps might make medication costs less of an issue. (But it wouldn't address whether the reasons for the medications are an issue or not.)

However, the Community is small, and relatively poor (not dumpster-diving poor--but they watch their pence). Still, they are sending Sadora to WYD in Madrid. For postulants and novices, they ask a "dowry" of 100 GBP per month, in part to cover health costs. This adds up to USD$6,012 for the three years at today's exchange rates. However, the dowry does not need to be paid all at once--I think it can be paid on a monthly basis--but not positive. I also have no idea whether the dowry is ever negotiable or waived if the funds are not there.

This is unfortunately one issue with a U.S. citizen going to the UK. The costs may higher, possibly MUCH higher.

Mater--You want a religious vocation so much. I continue to pray that God has given you this strong desire because he has a wonderful Community who is waiting for someone just like you.