Questions About Catholic Groups

[emilier98]

So I converted seven years ago and in those years I have never learned about Opus Dei, SSPX, or FSSP because they have never really come up and I have never really been confronted with them, however since being on Phatmass and due to where I attend university I have been hearing more and more about these groups and what I hear is almost never positive.

What I want to know is what are each of these groups, why people think so negatively of them, their history and their purposes. I really would like just information, not opinion. I want to make up my own mind about all of it and just hearing negative opinions does not help me to do that. I do not want to start a Catholic v Catholic debate, which is why I am posting this topic here.

I apologize in advance if this thread offends, but I really am just curious.

Emilie

[philothea]

Not that I want to send you off elsewhere, but with such a broad question, you might want to just check Wikipedia for an up-to-date, generally neutral take on any of these groups.

You're right that they're not well known to the general Catholic populace. I hadn't heard of any of them before Phatmass either. (Or if I had, not enough to remember it.)

[BramletAbercrombie]

I go to an FSSP parish, and from what I understand, here's a very simplified version of the history and difference between FSSP vs SSPX. Basically after the reform of Vatican II, there were some Catholics who preferred the "Old Rite" of the church, in Latin, with the 1962 ruberics. The SSPX priestly fraternity was founded in 1970 by the French Archbishop [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Lefebvre"][url="http://www.phatmass.com/wiki/Marcel_Lefebvre"][color="#0645ad"]Marcel Lefebvre[/color][/url][/url] to keep alive the tradition of the Tridintine Latin Mass in the old form. The leader of the SSPX went into "schism" status when he consecrated bishops against the express wishes of Pope John Paul II (in 1988). The founders of the FSSP officially broke off with the SSPX at this time, and went to the Vatican and petitioned for the permission to perform the rites while still being in full communion with Rome. The FSSP has continued to practice their apostolate with the full approval of Rome.

There are some who support the SSPX who say that going to an SSPX mass is illicit but valid. There are others who say that due to the schism with Rome that all sacraments performed by SSPX priests are invalid, and that attending SSPX services does not count towards the Sunday mass obligation. My thought is that it's best not to risk it.

The FSSP parish in my diocese was founded as a "personal parish", not unlike other language-specific parishes (i.e. St. Peter, our Polish parish). In other words, it's based on personal choice instead of location. We have people who drive an hour or more each Sunday to attend the parish.

From what I've heard, the objection to the "Latin Massers" is the perceived attitude of More Catholic Than Thou. At FSSP parishes, women wear long skirts, modest blouses, and wear head coverings. Men wear suits. Families are large, and many homeschool. That being said, after talking to people in my parish, that's not why they go there, nor is it why I go there. I cover my head as more of a cultural adaptation rather than a spiritual call. (When I go to NO mass I don't cover). The main reasons people go to Latin Mass are explained well in a post by one of my fellow parishoners on his blog - [url="http://cantuar.blogspot.com/2010/07/seven-reasons-why-i-joined-latin-mass.html"]Seven Reasons why I joined a Latin Mass parish[/url]. But in a nutshell, for me and others, the reason is that the homilies are meatier, the ceremonies are more reverent, and confession is offered on a very regular basis. At my home parish, for example, there is 45 minutes of confession time before the 5p Saturday English vigil and 45 minutes before the Spanish Saturday vigil. Now that I go to a parish with frequent confession times and great confessors, I find myself going to confession every week, and sometimes twice a week if I'm having a particularly difficult spriritual struggle or temptation.

And the homilies between my FSSP priests and the priests/deacons at my home parish are like night and day. Let me give you a recent example. There's a story of a miracle of Jesus that was read in both the Latin rite and the Novus Ordo (John 7), about a man who was blind who Jesus cured. In the Latin Mass, the Father talked about how in the tradition of the church, the story is told that the man became a disciple of Christ, a caretaker of Mary and one of the earliest bishops of the Catholic church. He talked about the significance of the miracle being performed on a Sunday, and how that angered the Jewish leadership, and how that anger was one of the driving forces behind the crucifixion. At the Cathedral, same week, same reading, the deacon talked about his cataract surgery, and the difference in his eyes, and how it made him think of the man who could see after the mud. My husband and I like to call those "Geico Homilies", after those rambling stories told in Geico commercials where at the end they say "The point is I saved a ton of money on my car insurance!" Same concept - rambling story (most of the time a personal story with only fleeting relation to the gospel), with an unrelated moral at the end.

[dUSt]

Opus Dei and FSSP = inside the church. Good.
SSPX = outside the church. Bad.

By the way, one of my favorite saints, St Josemaria Escriva, is the founder of Opus Dei. He's, well... a saint. That should say a lot about the organization.

[Nihil Obstat]

The SSPX participated in schismatic actions, but as Cardinal Hoyos has said on multiple occasions, they are not strictly speaking in schism. Their canonical status is irregular and their priests are suspended, but they are within the Church.

Also the FSSP is one of the greatest organizations in the Church right now.
Here's the FSSP priest in my diocese:
[img]http://www.fssp.org/album/VPC2008/imgp0263.jpg[/img]

[Cherie]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1303839339' post='2233449']

By the way, one of my favorite saints, St Josemaria Escriva, is the founder of Opus Dei. He's, well... a saint. That should say a lot about the organization.
[/quote]

Agreed!!!

I sincerely looked into joining Opus Dei, and may sometime in the future if it's God's will. If you're interested in finding out about them, I really suggest looking at their website http://www.opusdei.org/ or check out some Opus-Dei-minded books published by Scepter Publishers: http://www.scepterpublishers.org/ (some of the best Catholic books out there!!!)

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1303841511' post='2233470']
The SSPX participated in schismatic actions, but as Cardinal Hoyos has said on multiple occasions, they are not strictly speaking in schism. Their canonical status is irregular and their priests are suspended, but they are within the Church.[/quote]
It does not seem like the Vatican shares that view entirely.
From the Vatican Secretariat of State (4 Feb 2009):
[quote]"His Holiness desired to remove an impediment which was prejudicial to the opening of a door to dialogue. He now awaits a corresponding gesture from the four bishops expressing total adherence to the doctrine and discipline of the Church. The very grave penalty of latae sententiae excommunication, which these bishops incurred on 30 June 1988, and which was formally declared on 1 July 1988, was a consequence of their having been illegitimately ordained by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre.
The remission of the excommunication has freed the four bishops from a very serious canonical penalty, but it has not changed the juridical status of the Society of Saint Pius X, which presently does not enjoy any canonical recognition by the Catholic Church. [b]The four bishops, even though they have been released from excommunication, have no canonical function in the Church [u]and do not licitly exercise any ministry within it.[/u][/b]"[/quote]
http://storico.radiovaticana.org/en1/storico/2009-02/263765_secretariat_of_state_on_bishop_richard_williamson.html
Emphasis mine.

From Fr. Z:
[quote]"So… folks… don’t suddenly get it into your head that all the problems with the SSPX have suddenly been removed. Nothing has changed about their status. What changed was the status of the four bishops: they are no longer excommunicated, but they are still in a state of separation from clear and manifest unity with the Holy Father."[/quote]

I also agree with this sentiment of his:
[quote]"Q: Is it okay to receive Communion at an SSPX Mass?

Yes and no. Yes… if you would otherwise have to go without the Eucharist for a long time because you are morally or physically impeded from receiving in a licit way. No… if you are doing so because of contempt for the Pope, bishop, Holy See, etc.

[u]I don’t think it is a good idea to frequent and receive Communion often in the chapels of the SSPX. I think that undermines a person’s sense of unity with the Holy Father and the local bishop.[/u]"[/quote]
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2009/01/misconceptions-what-the-lifting-of-the-sspx-excoms-means-for-people/

Edited April 26, 2011 by USAirwaysIHS

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1303847880' post='2233540']
It does not seem like the Vatican shares that view entirely.
From the Vatican Secretariat of State (4 Feb 2009):

http://storico.radiovaticana.org/en1/storico/2009-02/263765_secretariat_of_state_on_bishop_richard_williamson.html
Emphasis mine.

From Fr. Z:


I also agree with this sentiment of his:

http://wdtprs.com/blog/2009/01/misconceptions-what-the-lifting-of-the-sspx-excoms-means-for-people/
[/quote]
None of that contradicts what I said. As I said, the priests are suspended (do not exercise a ministry within the Church).

[Vincent Vega]

Yes, but they are suspended and, as stated, cannot licitly perform their clerical duties...and yet they continue to celebrate masses (illicitly). Does this not incur some sort of penalty? Would it not be a matter of obedience to cease their "ministry" until such a time when they are granted permission by the Vatican to do so?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1303851509' post='2233575']
Yes, but they are suspended and, as stated, cannot licitly perform their clerical duties...and yet they continue to celebrate masses (illicitly). Does this not incur some sort of penalty? Would it not be a matter of obedience to cease their "ministry" until such a time when they are granted permission by the Vatican to do so?
[/quote]
Their Masses are illicit and disobedient, as their clergy is suspended.
However they are not properly schismatic and they remain in the Church.

[Vincent Vega]

Interesting.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1303851936' post='2233582']
Interesting.
[/quote]
I find it absolutely fascinating. Marcel Lefebvre had a life worth studying. It is sad that he died with his situation so irregular. However, I think history will look kinder on him than he is seen right now.
[img]http://c0499862.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/Padre_Pio_kissing_the_sacred_ring-78568.jpg[/img]
Here's him on the left with Padre Pio. This was a few years before the formation of the SSPX (so quite a few years before his canonical issues), and he would have been a Holy Ghost Father at that time.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1303852256' post='2233590']
I find it absolutely fascinating. Marcel Lefebvre had a life worth studying. It is sad that he died with his situation so irregular.
[/quote]
Someday when I have more free free-time, I'd like to learn more about him.

[Sarah147]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1303847531' post='2233534']
Agreed!!!

I sincerely looked into joining Opus Dei, and may sometime in the future if it's God's will. If you're interested in finding out about them, I really suggest looking at their website [url="http://www.opusdei.org/"]http://www.opusdei.org/[/url] or check out some Opus-Dei-minded books published by Scepter Publishers: [url="http://www.scepterpublishers.org/"]http://www.scepterpublishers.org/[/url] (some of the best Catholic books out there!!!)
[/quote]


Wow! That says a lot.


I don't quite understand what FSSP and Opus Dei are. Are they special Churches and Priests in the Roman Catholic Faith? Do they differ in any way on the teachings and faithfulness to the Pope? Are they fannatics or extremists?

How do you look up to see if there are any of these Churches in your area?

Edited April 26, 2011 by JoyfulLife

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1303856354' post='2233624']
Wow! That says a lot.


I don't quite understand what FSSP and Opus Dei are. Are they special Churches and Priests in the Roman Catholic Faith? Do they differ in any way on the teachings and faithfulness to the Pope?

How do you look up to see if there are any of these Churches in your area?
[/quote]
The FSSP is a Society of Apostolic Life, so they don't take the vows of a religious, but they do swear an oath to the Society. It's answerable to the Pope only, through Ecclesia Dei, however individual priests obviously must listen to bishops in the diocese from which they operate.
To find where they are, [url="http://www.fssp.org/en/messes.htm"]try this link here[/url].