Once Saved Always Saved!

[Norseman82]

So if one sins after being "saved" he/she was never saved in the first place?

Let's break this down.

John says he has been saved. But, in the future - it could be tomorrow, it could be fifty years from today - there is the possibility he may sin. So, therefore, it means that he never was saved in the first place?

Which means that even though he thinks he is saved now, he really isn't, according to the above logic.

So nobody can really be sure then, can they?

[jesussaves]

[quote]there is the possibility he may sin. So, therefore, it means that he never was saved in the first place?[/quote]

if you want to define salvation as living sinless i do not disagree. but catholics believe your sin causes the judgement of God to eternally separate you from Himself.

but the good news of the Gosple is that sin does not cause you to be judged by God. you will have eternal life because of your faith in Jesus.

there are many degrees of heaven which your sin can cause you to stay of. but the judgement of eternal life has nothing to do with your sin. a particular sin may or may not prove that you do not have faith. only God knows your faith and only He knows your heart.

Edited April 25, 2004 by jesussaves

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Apr 24 2004, 06:58 PM']
if you want to define salvation as living sinless i do not disagree. but catholics believe your sin causes the judgement of God to eternally separate you from Himself.

but the good news of the Gosple is that sin does not cause you to be judged by God.  you will have eternal life because of your faith in Jesus.

there are many degrees of heaven which your sin can cause you to stay of. but the judgement of eternal life has nothing to do with your sin. a particular sin may or may not prove that you do not have faith. only God knows your faith and only He knows your heart.[/quote]

[quote]but the good news of the Gosple is that sin does not cause you to be judged by God. you will have eternal life because of your faith in Jesus.[/quote]

[b][i]1 John Chapter 5[/i][/b]

If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. [b][i][u]There is such a thing as deadly sin,[/u][/i][/b] about which I do not say that you should pray.

[b]All wrongdoing is sin, [u]but there is sin that is not deadly.[/b][/u]

Got to read Sacred Scripture as a whole!

God Bless
Jason

[jesussaves]

there are some sins that people with true faith do not do. there are some sins that if people do them.. murder etc.. they most assurdedly do not have the faith of God in them. to pray for them would be next to fruitless. but that does not mean that sin causes you to go to hell. only God knows your heart.

Roman 4
"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

i could say that you should take your own advice. but then we would be sitting here telling each other the same thing. perhaps you will tell me this back at me.. but as a christian i must tell you: all i will do is tell you to PRAY to God and He will lead you to the knowledge of TRUE eternal life.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Apr 24 2004, 08:14 PM']there are some sins that people with true faith do not do. there are some sins that if people do them.. murder etc.. they most assurdedly do not have the faith of God in them. to pray for them would be next to fruitless. but that does not mean that sin causes you to go to hell. only God knows your heart.

Roman 4
"For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

i could say that you should take your own advice. but then we would be sitting here telling each other the same thing. perhaps you will tell me this back at me.. but as a christian i must tell you: all i will do is tell you to PRAY to God and He will lead you to the knowledge of TRUE eternal life.[/quote]
[b]ROM. 2:5-8[/b]
[b]By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,

[u]who will repay everyone according to his works:[/b][/u]

[u]eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,

but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.[/u]


[b]Peter 1:17[/b]
[b]Now if you invoke as Father him who [u]judges impartially according to each one's works,[/b][/u] conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning,



[b]Matthew 7:21[/b]
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, [b] but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.[/b]

God Bless
Jason

[Paladin D]

Likos is... BACK FROM THE DEAD! He's a zombie! He's gonna smell of elderberries our brains and sell them as sponges!

RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!!!! Ooooo... ice-cream.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Apr 24 2004, 05:58 PM']
the good news of the Gosple is that sin does not cause you to be judged by God.  you will have eternal life because of your faith in Jesus.

[/quote]
OSAS is the doctrine that salvation depends on what we [b][i]believe[/b][/i], not what we [b][i]do[/b][/i], whereas Catholicism teaches that it depends on both: We are saved by [b]grace alone[/b], through faith working in love.

According to OSAS, serial murderers and adulterers [or any other sinners] cannot lose their salvation for killing another or bedding with someone else’s spouse [or lying, or stealing] after they once repented and “got saved.” Here’s the pure, original doctrine, in a nutshell: [b][i]"No sin can separate us from Him [Christ], even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day"[/b][/i](Martin Luther). The rub of OSAS is that a person had to have been “sincere” at the time they “accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.”

Under OSAS, since Jesus saves us from all the sins we ever have committed in the past or ever will commit in the future, we are 100% ASSURED of our salvation. Forever. Period. Not only are we saved, but there’s never a penalty for sin because “Jesus paid the price for us.” And all of God's laws about behavior -- all those requirements about keeping the Commandments and avoiding sin and doing good works -- are suspended. God can’t send us to Hell, according to OSAS, because we’re 'born-again' believers in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord. Our belief renders God powerless to punish us for breaking His laws. So, as Luther put it, “Sin and sin strong.”

But if we lose our faith, our souls are in danger. To cover this contingency, the OSAS advocates opine that we weren’t “really” saved at all – we just "went through the motions." It appeared that we were saved, but it was only an illusion. We weren’t sincere enough at the time we “got saved” -- so Kings X.

I can tell you from experience that many OSAS believers keep on answering "altar calls" and "getting saved" over and over again because they question whether they were ever "sincere enough."

Each denomination that accepts OSAS may put their own spin on it.

Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos

[Katholikos]

bump for prov31girl

[Anna]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Apr 24 2004, 07:58 PM']
if you want to define salvation as living sinless i do not disagree. but [b]catholics believe [/b]your sin causes the judgement of God to eternally separate you from Himself.

[/quote]
I love how folks who know nothing of Catholicism come on here and tell us Catholics what we believe...

Sorry, you've got our Church's teachings all wrong.

When we freely choose to sin, we freely choose to separate ourselves from God. Not the other way around. God never chooses to separate Himself from us. He always loves us, even when we abandon Him.

Likewise, we may pay Christ lip service, saying that we love Him, believe in Him, want to spend eternity with Him, while we still cling to our sins. That's being dishonest with ourselves and with God.

Don't try to confuse the Church's True teachings with your misinterpretations of them!

Thanks, Likos, for bumping.

Pax Christi. <><

[frozencell]

I didn't read the entire thread, but I thought I'd throw my two cents in, anyhow. I was recently booted from BB, but before I was I had this discussion about 800 times. talking to a Baptist about anything is like talking to a saltine cracker. Chances are that most Baptists aren't going to change anything they in, but you can always try. That's what Jesus did with the Pharisees. Anyhow, I think that a lot of Protestants misunderstand "grace". Try to explain and think about it like this.

Grace is not WHAT we are saved by, it's WHY we are saved at all. God doesn't save us with grace, but with love. It's pretty simple.

[frozencell]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Apr 24 2004, 08:14 PM'] there are some sins that people with true faith do not do. there are some sins that if people do them.. murder etc.. they most assurdedly do not have the faith of God in them. to pray for them would be next to fruitless. but that does not mean that sin causes you to go to hell. only God knows your heart. [/quote]
[quote]there are some sins that people with true faith do not do. there are some sins that if people do them.. murder etc.. they most assurdedly do not have the faith of God in them. to pray for them would be next to fruitless.[/quote]

Geez...it's kind of scary to think that prayer is fruitless.

[quote]but that does not mean that sin causes you to go to hell.[/quote]

Actually, yes, sin DOES cause some to go to hell. May I remind you of the Scripture that says that the wages of sin is death? Maybe you just accidently missed that part.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Katholikos' date='Apr 25 2004, 08:58 PM'] OSAS is the doctrine that salvation depends on what we [b][i]believe[/b][/i], not what we [b][i]do[/b][/i], whereas Catholicism teaches that it depends on both: We are saved by [b]grace alone[/b], through faith working in love. [/quote]
Well and succinctly stated, Likos.

I've been having a long-standing discussion with a friend on this topic. One area in which we've strongly differed is that she says if my salvation is in even the smallest way dependent on what [i]I[/i] do, it takes away from the glory of God and the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice.

I don't see how, if any good action I do is good only because of and through God's grace, this action then takes away from God in any way. It makes no sense to me.

I believe there is a balance, seen throughout the Bible and in church teachings, of God's sovreignty and man's responsibility. God calls, we answer. God gives, we receive. I've come to see God's allowance of my participation in salvation as a loving gift.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='frozencell' date='May 4 2004, 04:13 PM'] I didn't read the entire thread, but I thought I'd throw my two cents in, anyhow. I was recently booted from BB, but before I was I had this discussion about 800 times. talking to a Baptist about anything is like talking to a saltine cracker. Chances are that most Baptists aren't going to change anything they in, but you can always try. That's what Jesus did with the Pharisees. Anyhow, I think that a lot of Protestants misunderstand "grace". Try to explain and think about it like this.

Grace is not WHAT we are saved by, it's WHY we are saved at all. God doesn't save us with grace, but with love. It's pretty simple. [/quote]
The Church teaches that we are saved by [b]grace alone[/b], in faith.

Here's the heart of the Lutheran-Catholic Joint Declaration on Justification, signed in 1999:

"Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works."

JMJ Likos

[the lumberjack]

then what is earning a 'merit'?

I think its called that... isn't that a good work that earns you a gift or blessing from God...that you can in turn use for you or someone in purgatory?

just wondering.

as for OSAS...I'll post again, if absolutely necessary.

God bless.

Christ first and only.

[Katholikos]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='May 4 2004, 04:39 PM'] Well and succinctly stated, Likos.

I've been having a long-standing discussion with a friend on this topic. One area in which we've strongly differed is that she says if my salvation is in even the smallest way dependent on what [i]I[/i] do, it takes away from the glory of God and the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice.

I don't see how, if any good action I do is good only because of and through God's grace, this action then takes away from God in any way. It makes no sense to me.

I believe there is a balance, seen throughout the Bible and in church teachings, of God's sovreignty and man's responsibility. God calls, we answer. God gives, we receive. I've come to see God's allowance of my participation in salvation as a loving gift. [/quote]
Thank you, Sojourner

I find the idea that "works" somehow detract from God's glory to be very strange (though at one time in my life, I accepted it). What meaning could Mt 25:31-46, the parable of the Last Judgment, possibly have other than that God expects us to do "good works"? Would He make it a requirement that we do something that detracts from His glory in order to be with Him in heaven? God will reward us according to our [b]works[/b] Romans 2:6. I've never seen Scripture which says God will reward us according to our beliefs.

(We've already established that works salvation is a heresy.)

And there's the stark contradiction to Sola Fides in James 2:24: "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."

And there is the definition, "Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their affliction and to keep oneself unstained by the world."

I take that to mean "Do good works and don't sin." The opposite of OSAS.

Many (most) Protestants have a template which the Scriptures are made to fit. They "find" their doctrines in the Scriptures, whether they're there or not. It's difficult for them to "see" the Scriptures (66 books) any way except as their denomination views them because of their training. And, the Scriptures are not considered holistically. The Catholic, however, is taught to read every passage in the entire Bible (73 books), in context, on a particular subject before coming to any conclusion about what the scriptures have to say about it. (I'm speaking from my personal experience.) And the truth lies not in what I may think the Scriptures say, but what the Church teaches. There is no authority in Protestantism. Every believer interprets the Bible for himself and "the Holy Spirit leads him to all truth." The poor, maligned Holy Spirit is said to be the author of thousands of different answers to the same questions.

OSAS is one of the most pernicious doctrines Martin Luther or any other Protestant ever devised, in my opinion.

Thanks for 'listening.'

JMJ Likos