Once Saved Always Saved!

[Livin_the_MASS]

I have a friend at work who used to not believe this but now he has joined a baptist church and they preach this very strongly.

I was talking to him about it yesterday, he spoke of grace alot and I found out from someone else that they also believe if you fall from the grace of God you were never saved anyway.

Pray for my friend, I tryied to explain to Him that you can fall from the grace of God, I gave Scripture for this and everything.

He also had a big problem with works, I don't know why he is the one I said me and him could talk about anything, and still get along?

I told him about Timothy (Faith without works is dead), and how Jesus said, "if you love me keep My commandments"

Then he went to the thief on the cross and how all he did was make an act of faith and repentance and he was saved. But then I also told him Scripture says that the one who is intrusted with much, much will be expected of that person. If you know better and reject something, thats not good! Also, I quoted this in Scripture, "let people see your works that they may glorify their Heavenly Father." And again, "If you love me keep my commandments."

Pray for him, I put this topic in here though so that we can discuss it and if any body has good advice I can give to him, let me have it please!

He is set in this belief though like over night and like I said he used to not even believe it.

Hmmm????? Kinda weird?

God Bless Pham
Jason

[cmotherofpirl]

[url="http://catholicoutlook.com/oncesavedquiz.html"]http://catholicoutlook.com/oncesavedquiz.html[/url]

[Ellenita]

[quote]if you fall from the grace of God you were never saved anyway.[/quote]

Dead easy answer which is necessary for anyone who believes in the 'once saved, always saved' doctrine. Technically if you claim you've been saved then it's possible under this concept to sin as much as you want, you'll still get to heaven - the problem for Christians who see other people living this kind of life is that it doesn't fit into the expectations of what being a Christian is so they have say the person wasn't saved in the first place....of course that also means judging other people....and I'm sure there is something in the bible about that!!

How does your friend reconcile himself to the book of James?

[cmotherofpirl]

Its also a cop-out to say the someone who fell was never saved anyway.
So it really isn't eternal salvation, but just until you fall.

[jesussaves]

[quote]Its also a cop-out to say the someone who fell was never saved anyway.
So it really isn't eternal salvation, but just until you fall. [/quote]

i can see that you are worried about falling, therefore there's a good chance you don't trust in Jesus in the appropriate manner. not that anything you could ever do.. even your faith.. could ever save you. (yet this is a type of faith i realize)

it could be possible that you do trust, because it is possible to "fall from grace" in that you never really believed to begin with and that statement is a cop out. but usually those who truly believe and trust stress that if you believe, you will never be condemned and if you fall away, you never believed to begin with.

it could be a cop out, you are correct. but just ask yourself why you are saying this. do you trust in Jesus and in nothing that you could ever do? (even doing something by the grace of God) i'm not trying to judge you, only God knows your heart. please pray to Christ Jesus and he will guide you.

[Dave]

In Matt. 18:21-35, Jesus tells us that that if we do not forgive others God will do to each one of us what happened to the unmerciful servant, namely, that after initially being forgiven we will be unforgiven and delivered over to the jailers until we can pay all of our infinite debt.

But OSAS implies that if we end unforgiven then we must never have been forgiven in the first place.

In Luke 8:13, Jesus tells us that there are some who receive the word with joy but, because they have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

But OSAS implies that they never believed in the first place and that it is impossible for anyone who believed to fall away in time of temptation.

In Luke 12:42-46, Jesus tells us that you can start out as a faithful and wise steward of his, then begin to mistreat your fellow Christians and eat and drink and get drunk, and then when Jesus returns be punished and assigned a place with the unfaithful.

But OSAS implies that anyone who will be assigned a place with the unfaithful must have been unfaithful from the beginning, meaning that he was never a "faithful" and wise steward to begin with, as Jesus said he was.

In Luke 15:11-32, Jesus tells the parable of the prodigal son, in which one of the sons of the Father leaves home, is twice described by his father as being "dead" and then returns home and is spoken of by the Father as being "alive again."

But OSAS implies that it is impossible for one of the sons of the Father to be "alive again" because no son of the Father can ever leave home and become "dead."

In John 15:1-10, Jesus says that he is the vine and we are the branches and that if we do not bear fruit we will be cut out of him, wither up, and finally be burned in the fire.

But OSAS implies that it is impossible for any branch to be cut out of Jesus and thrown into the fire, and that every branch in Jesus automatically bears fruit.

In John 17:12, Jesus says that he had lost none of those the Father had given to him except for Judas.

But OSAS implies that that nobody who the Father has given to Jesus can ever be lost.

In Romans 8:13, Paul warns his audience of Christians that if they live according to the flesh they will die.

But OSAS implies that it is impossible for Christians to live according to the flesh.

In Romans 11:20-33, Paul says that Jews were broken off of the tree of God's spiritual Israel because of unbelief, and that we retain our place in it only be believing, so we should be afraid because God will not spare us if we disbelieve anymore than he spared the natural branches.

But OSAS implies that no one can ever be cut out of God's spiritual Israel and that it is impossible for us to disbelieve.

In Romans 14:15-23, Paul tells us that we must not, by what we eat, ruin others for whom Christ died.

But OSAS implies that those for whom Christ died can never be ruined no matter what we do.

In the same passage, Paul tells us that we must not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God by making our brother Christian fall.

But OSAS implies that it is impossible to destroy the work of God under any circumstances and that no brother Christian can ever fall.

In 1 Cor. 9:23-27, Paul tells us that not every runner who runs in the race will receive a prize and that he pommels his body to subdue it, lest after preaching salvation to others he himself would be disqualified.

But OSAS implies that you can't even join the race of salvation unless you're going to win a prize, and that if Paul was ever a true athlete in this race it would be impossible for him to be disqualified.

In 1 Cor. 10:12, Paul says, "Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall."

But OSAS implies that it is impossible for anyone to fall. It would be impossible for true Christians to fall because they will all persevere, and it would be impossible for false Christians to fall because they were never standing in the first place. Furthermore, false Christians should be encouraged to fall from their false Christianity so they can embrace true Christianity!

In 1 Cor. 15:1-2, Paul tells us that we will be saved by the gospel if we hold it fast, unless we believe in vain.

But OSAS implies that if we believed at all we cannot help but holding fast to the gospel and that it is impossible for anyone to believe in vain because saving faith is never in vain and non-saving faith is not true belief in the first place and never would have helped us.

In 2 Cor. 11:2-4, Paul says that he betrothed his audience to Christ like a pure bride, but that they were in danger of being seduced by the serpent, just like Eve, and that they had submitted readily to a different Christ and a different gospel.

But OSAS implies that it is impossible for anyone today to do what Eve did and fall from a state of grace, and having once accepted the true Christ and the true gospel turn aside to a false Christ and a false gospel.

In 2 Cor. 12:5, Paul says that you must examine yourself to see if we are holding "to "your" faith."

But OSAS implies that if you are not holding to your faith, you never had faith to begin with.

In Gal. 5:1-4, Paul says that anyone who is circumcised becomes severed from Christ and has fallen from grace.

But OSAS implies that it is impossible to be severed from Christ and impossible to fall from grace.

And there are many others, but let's end with a few passages from Revelation:

In Rev. 3:5, Jesus says that He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life. And in Exodus 32:33, God said he would blot out of his book whoever sinned.

But OSAS implies that it is impossible to be blotted out of the book if you were ever in it.

In Rev. 3:11, Jesus tells his readers, "I am coming soon; hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown."

But OSAS implies that we can never lose what we have and that no one can ever steal our crown and that if we lack a crown we never had one to begin with.

In Rev. 22:19, John discusses the scroll of the book of Revelation and says, "if any one takes away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this scroll."

But OSAS implies it is impossible to have your share of the tree of life taken away and your share in the holy city taken away and that if you don't have a share in either then you didn't have a share in them to begin with.

[Brother Adam]

Christ knocks any idea of a "OSAS" when he institutes a covenant instead of a contract.

God tells us we can have an assurance of the hope of our salvation, but never once does the Bible lead us to believe it is impossible for us to break a covenantal relationship.

The main problem is reading the scriptures as if they were written by 20th century Americans.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Dave' date='Apr 23 2004, 01:23 PM'] In Matt. 18:21-35, Jesus tells us that that if we do not forgive others God will do to each one of us what happened to the unmerciful servant, namely, that after initially being forgiven we will be unforgiven and delivered over to the jailers until we can pay all of our infinite debt.

But OSAS implies that if we end unforgiven then we must never have been forgiven in the first place.

In Luke 8:13, Jesus tells us that there are some who receive the word with joy but, because they have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

But OSAS implies that they never believed in the first place and that it is impossible for anyone who believed to fall away in time of temptation.

In Luke 12:42-46, Jesus tells us that you can start out as a faithful and wise steward of his, then begin to mistreat your fellow Christians and eat and drink and get drunk, and then when Jesus returns be punished and assigned a place with the unfaithful.

But OSAS implies that anyone who will be assigned a place with the unfaithful must have been unfaithful from the beginning, meaning that he was never a "faithful" and wise steward to begin with, as Jesus said he was.

In Luke 15:11-32, Jesus tells the parable of the prodigal son, in which one of the sons of the Father leaves home, is twice described by his father as being "dead" and then returns home and is spoken of by the Father as being "alive again."

But OSAS implies that it is impossible for one of the sons of the Father to be "alive again" because no son of the Father can ever leave home and become "dead."

In John 15:1-10, Jesus says that he is the vine and we are the branches and that if we do not bear fruit we will be cut out of him, wither up, and finally be burned in the fire.

But OSAS implies that it is impossible for any branch to be cut out of Jesus and thrown into the fire, and that every branch in Jesus automatically bears fruit.

In John 17:12, Jesus says that he had lost none of those the Father had given to him except for Judas.

But OSAS implies that that nobody who the Father has given to Jesus can ever be lost.

In Romans 8:13, Paul warns his audience of Christians that if they live according to the flesh they will die.

But OSAS implies that it is impossible for Christians to live according to the flesh.

In Romans 11:20-33, Paul says that Jews were broken off of the tree of God's spiritual Israel because of unbelief, and that we retain our place in it only be believing, so we should be afraid because God will not spare us if we disbelieve anymore than he spared the natural branches.

But OSAS implies that no one can ever be cut out of God's spiritual Israel and that it is impossible for us to disbelieve.

In Romans 14:15-23, Paul tells us that we must not, by what we eat, ruin others for whom Christ died.

But OSAS implies that those for whom Christ died can never be ruined no matter what we do.

In the same passage, Paul tells us that we must not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God by making our brother Christian fall.

But OSAS implies that it is impossible to destroy the work of God under any circumstances and that no brother Christian can ever fall.

In 1 Cor. 9:23-27, Paul tells us that not every runner who runs in the race will receive a prize and that he pommels his body to subdue it, lest after preaching salvation to others he himself would be disqualified.

But OSAS implies that you can't even join the race of salvation unless you're going to win a prize, and that if Paul was ever a true athlete in this race it would be impossible for him to be disqualified.

In 1 Cor. 10:12, Paul says, "Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall."

But OSAS implies that it is impossible for anyone to fall. It would be impossible for true Christians to fall because they will all persevere, and it would be impossible for false Christians to fall because they were never standing in the first place. Furthermore, false Christians should be encouraged to fall from their false Christianity so they can embrace true Christianity!

In 1 Cor. 15:1-2, Paul tells us that we will be saved by the gospel if we hold it fast, unless we believe in vain.

But OSAS implies that if we believed at all we cannot help but holding fast to the gospel and that it is impossible for anyone to believe in vain because saving faith is never in vain and non-saving faith is not true belief in the first place and never would have helped us.

In 2 Cor. 11:2-4, Paul says that he betrothed his audience to Christ like a pure bride, but that they were in danger of being seduced by the serpent, just like Eve, and that they had submitted readily to a different Christ and a different gospel.

But OSAS implies that it is impossible for anyone today to do what Eve did and fall from a state of grace, and having once accepted the true Christ and the true gospel turn aside to a false Christ and a false gospel.

In 2 Cor. 12:5, Paul says that you must examine yourself to see if we are holding "to "your" faith."

But OSAS implies that if you are not holding to your faith, you never had faith to begin with.

In Gal. 5:1-4, Paul says that anyone who is circumcised becomes severed from Christ and has fallen from grace.

But OSAS implies that it is impossible to be severed from Christ and impossible to fall from grace.

And there are many others, but let's end with a few passages from Revelation:

In Rev. 3:5, Jesus says that He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life. And in Exodus 32:33, God said he would blot out of his book whoever sinned.

But OSAS implies that it is impossible to be blotted out of the book if you were ever in it.

In Rev. 3:11, Jesus tells his readers, "I am coming soon; hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown."

But OSAS implies that we can never lose what we have and that no one can ever steal our crown and that if we lack a crown we never had one to begin with.

In Rev. 22:19, John discusses the scroll of the book of Revelation and says, "if any one takes away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this scroll."

But OSAS implies it is impossible to have your share of the tree of life taken away and your share in the holy city taken away and that if you don't have a share in either then you didn't have a share in them to begin with. [/quote]
Thank You David : (cut print copy) Good stuff!

God Bless
Jason

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Apr 23 2004, 02:21 PM']
i can see that you are worried about falling, therefore there's a good chance you don't trust in Jesus in the appropriate manner. not that anything you could ever do.. even your faith.. could ever save you. (yet this is a type of faith i realize)

it could be possible that you do trust, because it is possible to "fall from grace" in that you never really believed to begin with and that statement is a cop out. but usually those who truly believe and trust stress that if you believe, you will never be condemned and if you fall away, you never believed to begin with.

it could be a cop out, you are correct. but just ask yourself why you are saying this. do you trust in Jesus and in nothing that you could ever do? (even doing something by the grace of God) i'm not trying to judge you, only God knows your heart. please pray to Christ Jesus and he will guide you. [/quote]
I have no problems trusting Jesus, He is God - emeth.
However, He is a not a guarentee of MY good behavior. If I ever thought that, I would be sinning the sin of pride and arrogance, that I could never fall.
The prodigal son clearly shows otherwise.

Dave that was awesome.

Edited April 23, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[yezad]

Edited April 23, 2004 by yezad

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 23 2004, 01:26 PM'] Christ knocks any idea of a "OSAS" when he institutes a covenant instead of a contract.

God tells us we can have an assurance of the hope of our salvation, but never once does the Bible lead us to believe it is impossible for us to break a covenantal relationship.

The main problem is reading the scriptures as if they were written by 20th century Americans. [/quote]
Hey Bro Adam were you taught once saved always saved or do not all baptist believe this?


God Bless
Jason

[Brother Adam]

I was raised Lutheran, they do not believe OSAS. As a Baptist I did believe it for a while. Almost all Baptists believe in OSAS.

[Katholikos]

Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS) was an unknown doctrine throughout the first 16 centuries of Christianity. It originated not from the teaching of the Apostles, nor from the Bible -- these disparate writings didn't exist as a canonized collection until the beginning of the fifth Christian century -- but from the pen of Martin Luther. Strangely enough, most Lutherans reject OSAS while many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists believe it. They find their "proof texts" in a misinterpretation of the Scriptures.

[b]13. If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but
the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the
true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only
imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let
your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the
victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we
are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We,
however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new
heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. [u] It suffices that
through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the
sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to
kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. [/u] Do you think
such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager
sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

On the day of the Feast of St. Peter the Apostle, 1521[/b]

[i]Martin Luther, Letter to Melanchthon[/i]

Full text at: [url="http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/letsinsbe.txt"]http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/w...r/letsinsbe.txt[/url]

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos

[IcePrincessKRS]

*gasp*

LIKOS!!!!!!!!!!

I have missed you! It's so good to "see" you! I hope you are doing well.

:wub: *hugs*

[Katholikos]

Princess, many thanks for your welcome. I'm better, thanks, but still not well. But I'm well enuff to do battle at phatmass again!

How's baby AA? Write privately and lemmeno. Katholikos1@aol.com.

{{{Hugs}}}