How Are Pro Life People For The Death Penalty?

[Socrates]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1303670942' post='2231876']
Haven't read any of the posts, but as far as responding to the topic title...

Life is Life.
[/quote]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbB1s7TZUQk[/media]


(The original)
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jy4tMySp5o[/media]

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' timestamp='1303518874' post='2231269']
ahh but how many more white people are there than black people? in the states at least?
[/quote]
If this chart is to believed...
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4d/Lifetime_prevalence_of_incarceration.png[/img]

Then it's obvious the prison system is racist against white people. They are a fraction of the prison population and yet they outnumber all races on death row. This means if you are white and going to jail, you have a far greater chance of being killed by the death penalty. If the system is to be fair, by the numbers as liberals like, the system needs to be begin killing more black people so their deaths are precisely proportional to their prison population.

If you are implying there are more white people in the general populous and therefore there should be more white people on death row than there already is, then I would submit the jail system is also sexist. Females represent 50.9% of the U.S. population. Yet, the prison system is occupied by far more males than females. Law enforcement is clearly targeting males unfairly.

[Amppax]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1303878765' post='2233814']
If this chart is to believed...
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4d/Lifetime_prevalence_of_incarceration.png[/img]

Then it's obvious the prison system is racist against white people. They are a fraction of the prison population and yet they outnumber all races on death row. This means if you are white and going to jail, you have a far greater chance of being killed by the death penalty. If the system is to be fair, by the numbers as liberals like, the system needs to be begin killing more black people so their deaths are precisely proportional to their prison population.

If you are implying there are more white people in the general populous and therefore there should be more white people on death row than there already is, then I would submit the jail system is also sexist. Females represent 50.9% of the U.S. population. Yet, the prison system is occupied by far more males than females. Law enforcement is clearly targeting males unfairly.
[/quote]

i really hope this wasn't serious....

[Amppax]

*edited for failure to fully read post being responded to

Edited April 27, 2011 by Amppax

[Mr.Cat]

Boo...

Edited April 27, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='kamiller42' timestamp='1303878765' post='2233814']

Then it's obvious the prison system is racist against white people. They are a fraction of the prison population and yet they outnumber all races on death row. This means if you are white and going to jail, you have a far greater chance of being killed by the death penalty. If the system is to be fair, by the numbers as liberals like, the system needs to be begin killing more black people so their deaths are precisely proportional to their prison population.

If you are implying there are more white people in the general populous and therefore there should be more white people on death row than there already is, then I would submit the jail system is also sexist. Females represent 50.9% of the U.S. population. Yet, the prison system is occupied by far more males than females. Law enforcement is clearly targeting males unfairly.
[/quote]

You know this is quite a simplistic examination of the information we have access to. I wish I had more time to mull over all of the data and examine the underlying societal causes and repercussions of capital punishment. But I don't, so I don't contend that I'm anything close to an expert. But you can't take one statistic and then use that to make sweeping generalizations and conclusions based upon it. I know that's what you are criticizing the other side for doing by playing the "race card" and I understand why you have a problem with that. Conversely you can't say "well actually the percentage of white prisoners on death row is much larger than that of black prisoners on death row therefore the claims of racism are ridiculous and unfounded."

I do have a [i]possible[/i] explanation for the graph you posted (which has no label on either axis so it's hard to know what you're looking at, although we can infer the info from your post) that I would just like you to consider. As Soc mentioned, black people both commit crime at a higher rate and are [b]more likely to be the victims of violent crime[/b]. Now, could it be that less black people are on death row because of the high percentage of black-on-black crime? Meaning, "who cares it's just another *racial epithet* dead?" Isn't that [i]possible[/i]? If the victims of violent crime committed by black people are usually other black people, and the lives of black people are really regarded as less valuable, then would it make much sense to put a black person on death row because he killed another black person? I mean if this pervading institutional racism actually exists, who cares to avenge or meter out justice on behalf of a lesser being?

Now I don't have the stats to prove this theory, so I'm not asking anyone to take it hook line and sinker, but all the info I've seen in this thread is [i]consistent[/i] with the idea of institutional racism. Maybe not on the immediate surface no, but too often people take a simplistic conclusion from one set of data. Coupling that with my own observations and experiences I'm certainly not willing to rule out racism within the justice system.In fact it seems quite plausible to me.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1303879149' post='2233819']
i really hope this wasn't serious....
[/quote]
It's called "irony," son.

[Winchester]

[quote name='CatherineM' timestamp='1303223928' post='2230167']
In US history, there have been 16,000 executions. Of those, only 30 were of a white man convicted of killing a minority. Florida has never executed a white man for killing a black man. Prosecutors have the sole authority on who will face the death penalty, and in death penalty states, only 2% of prosecutors are members of a minority group.

If the system has a built in racial bias, we should not support it.
[/quote]
While there might be a racial problem with people, your numbers don't prove it. You have to explore the situations behind the numbers. Of course, what it did prove is that you think white prosecutors are racists.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1303930235' post='2233938']
You know this is quite a simplistic examination of the information we have access to. I wish I had more time to mull over all of the data and examine the underlying societal causes and repercussions of capital punishment. But I don't, so I don't contend that I'm anything close to an expert. But you can't take one statistic and then use that to make sweeping generalizations and conclusions based upon it. I know that's what you are criticizing the other side for doing by playing the "race card" and I understand why you have a problem with that. Conversely you can't say "well actually the percentage of white prisoners on death row is much larger than that of black prisoners on death row therefore the claims of racism are ridiculous and unfounded."

I do have a [i]possible[/i] explanation for the graph you posted (which has no label on either axis so it's hard to know what you're looking at, although we can infer the info from your post) that I would just like you to consider. As Soc mentioned, black people both commit crime at a higher rate and are [b]more likely to be the victims of violent crime[/b]. Now, could it be that less black people are on death row because of the high percentage of black-on-black crime? Meaning, "who cares it's just another *racial epithet* dead?" Isn't that [i]possible[/i]? If the victims of violent crime committed by black people are usually other black people, and the lives of black people are really regarded as less valuable, then would it make much sense to put a black person on death row because he killed another black person? I mean if this pervading institutional racism actually exists, who cares to avenge or meter out justice on behalf of a lesser being?[/quote]
Originally, the death penalty was condemned as racist because it's claimed a disproportionate number of black men are condemned to death.

Now you suggest that too many black murderers are [i]not[/i] being put to death, (also because of white racism, of course)!

You all need to make up your minds!

This is really looking more and more like trying to find ways to prove the assumption that the system is racist in intent (because after all, we know the horrible criminal justice system in Racist Amerikkka [i]must[/i] be driven by racist motives!), rather than an objective analysis of the facts.


[quote]Now I don't have the stats to prove this theory, so I'm not asking anyone to take it hook line and sinker, but all the info I've seen in this thread is [i]consistent[/i] with the idea of institutional racism. Maybe not on the immediate surface no, but too often people take a simplistic conclusion from one set of data. Coupling that with my own observations and experiences I'm certainly not willing to rule out racism within the justice system.In fact it seems quite plausible to me.
[/quote]
If one is going to accuse the penal system of being racist, the burden of proof should be on those making the accusation of racism, not on those who deny the accusation. Simply saying it's [i]possible[/i] that the system [i]might be[/i] racist is hardly a convincing case for a sweeping condemnation of the death penalty as "racist."
That is going on an awful lot of unproven assumptions.

For the record, a significantly smaller portion of Asian Americans are on death row than whites or those of other races.
Should we assume some sinister racist Asiatic Plot against Westerners is behind this discrepancy?

And since there are far fewer women than men on death row or in prison, does that mean the penal system is sexist against males?

[Winchester]

Socrates, please stop questioning the white liberal race pandering assumptions.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1303942835' post='2234016']
Socrates, please stop questioning the white liberal race pandering assumptions.
[/quote]
Sorry sir, I'll try to avoid it in the future.


















yeah, right . . .

[Amppax]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1303941480' post='2234008']
It's called "irony," son.
[/quote]

understood, it was really late when I wrote that [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/blush.gif[/img]

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1303942673' post='2234015']
Originally, the death penalty was condemned as racist because it's claimed a disproportionate number of black men are condemned to death.

[b]Now you suggest that too many black murderers are [i]not[/i] being put to death, (also because of white racism, of course)[/b]![/quote]

Please, you know that's not what I'm saying. One side says "here's a stat that shows the death penalty to be racist," to which kamiller said "here's a stat that proves the death penalty is actually not racist." I understand why you and kamiller objected. The evidence shown was not sufficient proof for their side of the argument. OK, but it's inefficiency wasn't illuminated by the graphs and stats posted in response, it was and is inefficient because it simply isn't enough information to grasp the complexity of the problem. Likewise the arguments of the opposition were not sufficient in debunking anything. There's simply not enough there.

You say the burden of proof lies on the person making the claim. That's fair. And I guess I can't expect a detailed and nuanced opposition when the claim has not been argued sufficiently. Like I said this is a complex issue and I don't quite have the time or resources to build a solid argument either way, but that's not what this thread has been really. It's been throwing little tidbits of statistical information and going "see! the system is/isn't racist!" or "if the system is/isn't racist then how do you explain this data?! haha lol"

I was merely giving a [i]possible[/i] explanation of the statistics. You see it as trying to weasel my way out of the obvious truth because you can't see past the "oh they're just being politically -correct/liberal/bleeding heart sissies. When all I was asking is to merely [i]consider[/i] the possibility that perhaps there is racism in the justice system. Unless of course you've already made your mind up, in which case you're criticizing others for doing the same thing.

Are you an expert in this area or have you done extensive, rigorous research on it? I'm guessing with the amount and quality of the information here that none of us are (although I do remember Catherine mentioning that she was studying it or something).

But doesn't it make sense that, if most violent crimes committed by black people are against black people, society might feel the need to lock em up but don't see why they should waste even more resources on capital punishment to avenge black victims? Can't you accept this as a [i]possibility[/i]? Why the hell you interpreted this as a call to kill more black prisoners is beyond me, unless you were just trolling. A REALLY useful statistic would be death penalty rates based on the race of the victims rather than the offenders. I don't have that information and don't know how I could find it, but it [i]could[/i] explain the set of data kamiller has given. I'm not interested at the moment in formulating a thorough argument in either direction, I was merely proposing an explanation or you might even call it a question in some sense.
[quote]
Simply saying it's possible that the system might be racist is hardly a convincing case for a sweeping condemnation of the death penalty as "racist."
That is going on an awful lot of unproven assumptions.[/quote]

That's all I was saying. This is a freakin forum I'm not in the process of writing a dissertation on the matter. Unlike yours seems to be, my mind is actually not made up and hell, I was interested in exchanging ideas, theories, and possibilities because I find the subject matter interesting. I didn't know that I must have an iron-clad impregnable argument before I could engage in discussion. Guess I didn't read the rules well enough.

And please tell me where to find my sweeping condemnation of the death penalty as racist. I do not see it. In fact I said quite the opposite more than once. All I know is racism still exists as a pervading force that often goes unseen. I assume you don't quite agree. I'm not here to convince you of this, but because I believe it to be true, I merely wanted to swap some ideas about how this might, or might not, be playing out in our justice system.

If it is inconceivable for you to understand how a person might be sympathetic to racial-bias unless said person is a liberal p-c hippie then whatever. That's your deal. And if you're unwilling to partake in some theoretical discussion (distinct from debating, which I don't remember me ever doing) with people like me that's A-OK. But don't try to caricature my "argument" as some bumbling idiot tripping over his own words and blissfully unaware of his own incompetence when I never ever claimed I had a solid argument in the first place.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1303953944' post='2234091']
If it is inconceivable for you to understand how a person might be sympathetic to racial-bias unless said person is a liberal p-c hippie then whatever. That's your deal. And if you're unwilling to partake in some theoretical discussion (distinct from debating, which I don't remember me ever doing) with people like me that's A-OK. But don't try to caricature my "argument" as some bumbling idiot tripping over his own words and blissfully unaware of his own incompetence when I never ever claimed I had a solid argument in the first place.
[/quote]

*shrugs*

well [i]I[/i] certainly took you to be a liberal p-c hippie from your "argument" . . . and I [i]did[/i] assume that you were a bumbling idiot tripping over his own words and blissfully unaware of his own incompetence . . .

















Sorry, just couldn't resist. :D

[MagiDragon]

Honestly, I think there are a lot of people who see everything as being racially related, and the guys on here are just sick of that mentality. It wasn't anything personal.

Peace,
Joe