fides' Jack Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1303194325' post='2230108'] Clapping has different meanings. Obviously, clapping for human achievement or for a performance is innappropriate during mass. But, I don't think all clapping falls into that category. For example, the clapping that occured during JP2's funeral mass--it is custom for there to be clapping at Italian funerals. Bishops who ask for applause for newly ordained priests at ordination masses... Clapping during B16's masses when he came to the United States..... he did not tell people to stop clapping. [/quote] Hmm... Great point, and worthy of some serious thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1303019194' post='2229437'] +2 internets if you can get a video of him doing the Macarena to "We Are One Body". [/quote] Why? So we can all gossip about it here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 [quote name='fides' Jack' timestamp='1303235283' post='2230231'] Why? So we can all gossip about it here? [/quote] Don't have sour grapes just because you wanted the Electric Slide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fides' Jack Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1303193277' post='2230098'] I do remember one time where I actually did clap in mass. It wasn't for human achievement. It was after a homily. The parish I was attending was having a lot of issues with a liberal priest and liturgical abuses, etc. Well, a new priest came in. In one of his first homilies, he just totally went hardcore about ending the liturgical abuses, promoting confession, starting adoration at the parish, etc. After the homily, the congregation started clapping--me included. I don't think it was innapropriate at that moment. I don't think we were really praising any human achievement, but showing support and agreement with the things he said needed to be done. Why hasn't anybody commented on if they agree with me on this or not? I need support or denouncement. I'll take either. [/quote] dUSt, I have felt the exact same way a number of times. Once, after a great homily, I was inspired to write a letter to the priest in question. I wrote the letter, but ended up just thanking him in person. Still, while PMers are generally aware of the changes that need to take place, I think it's wise to consider why we might perform such an action (clapping). I completely accept that your (and my) reasons for doing so in such a time are not about achievements of any one person. We feel that way because of the aching in our hearts - aching for something better and holier, and when somebody speaks out supporting holier ideals, we feel overjoyed. It's quite natural. However, clapping itself takes others' attention away from where attention should be during Mass, and since that is the case it becomes inappropriate... *normally*. St. John of the Cross wrote about how the holiness of the Mass is capable of lifting every part of a man to be filled with joy - mentally, spiritually, physically, and even sensually. This spiritual joy can then become a distraction, and can cause inappropriate effects in some people. The reason is good, but the action itself might be another story. That's what I would say in normal circumstances. In your case, since the entire congregation was involved I really don't know what is appropriate. One more person clapping would not distract others. Perhaps somebody else could comment on this particular case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Well if clapping is accepted, would booing if the priest's homily is contrary to Church teaching?[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/idontknow.gif[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 In the example I cited, the clapping was not for "a great homily". I've heard many great homilies, and I think silent reflection on that homily is the best and most reverent option. The example I cited was more of a show of support and solidarity for fixing our parish. You have to understand the situation--a new priest going out on a limb and taking a huge chance of being run out of the parish by some very liberal folks. The clapping was a confirmation that his bravery was not being ignored. That a good majority of the parish truly did desire authentic Catholicism. I don't know. Maybe it was wrong. I'm only saying it's not always so clear. The church has not really taken a stance on this. The B16 quote is amesome, but notice it does distinguish clapping "for human achievement". It's not really a condemnation of ALL clapping. Of course, more church teaching on this matter is certainly welcome if someone has the time to research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papist Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1303316685' post='2230541'] In the example I cited, the clapping was not for "a great homily". I've heard many great homilies, and I think silent reflection on that homily is the best and most reverent option. The example I cited was more of a show of support and solidarity for fixing our parish. You have to understand the situation--a new priest going out on a limb and taking a huge chance of being run out of the parish by some very liberal folks. The clapping was a confirmation that his bravery was not being ignored. That a good majority of the parish truly did desire authentic Catholicism. I don't know. Maybe it was wrong. I'm only saying it's not always so clear. The church has not really taken a stance on this. The B16 quote is amesome, but notice it does distinguish clapping "for human achievement". It's not really a condemnation of ALL clapping. Of course, more church teaching on this matter is certainly welcome if someone has the time to research. [/quote] You speak as if the only place to show your confirmation that his bravery was not being ignored is during Mass. As I stated before, could it not wait until after Mass and you express to him personally your appreciation. That would mean a lot to him. Also, he may not want you to clap during Mass, especially if he is orthodox as you say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 [quote name='Papist' timestamp='1303329049' post='2230610'] You speak as if the only place to show your confirmation that his bravery was not being ignored is during Mass. [/quote] Oh, I do? Can you show me where I lead you to believe this? It will help me better communicate in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 perhaps a more lasting show of support would be to write a letter to the bishop and the priest? if people are upset about his orthodoxy, most likely those people wrote letters to the bishop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 [img]http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv189/Nihil_Obstat/n1311204347_126353_8292.jpg[/img] What he said.... No need to go further. It is incredibly clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1303409229' post='2230890'] [img]http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv189/Nihil_Obstat/n1311204347_126353_8292.jpg[/img] What he said.... No need to go further. It is incredibly clear. [/quote] Does this mean dUSt has to give up his webmaster tag and moderation powers for disagreeing with the pope? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIKolbe Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 [quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1303415499' post='2230898'] Does this mean dUSt has to give up his webmaster tag and moderation powers for disagreeing with the pope? [/quote] [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1302901381' post='2229020'] Also, I completely agree with B16 in that image you posted. [/quote] umm.. yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1303415819' post='2230900'] umm.. yeah. [/quote] A good number of faithful Catholics lost their tags for less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 The nice picture with the big fonts that has been posted several times has a quote on it. I have a copy of The Spirit of the Liturgy by Joseph Ratzinger, from which that quote was copied. First, I completely agree with the image. Second, I am not talking about [i]applause for human achievement[/i]. Third, when read in context, that quote was in the section of the book that was talking about liturgical dance. [quote]It is totally absurd to try to make the liturgy "attractive" by introducing dancing pantomimes (wherever possible performed by professional dance troupes), which frequently (and rightly, from the professionals' point of view) end with applause. [i]Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.[/i] Such attractiveness fades quickly--it cannot compete in the market of leisure pursuits, incorporating as it increasingly does various forms of religious titillation. I myself have experienced the replacing of the penitential rite by a dance performance, which, needless to say, received a round of applause. Could there be anything farther removed from true penitence?[/quote] So, before anyone starts to use the pretty Photoshop image as their infallible document proving my infidelity to the pope, I implore you to try to find something a bit more official (and one that I don't actually agree with). Find something that does not single out applause for human achievement or entertainment. I want you to find it, because I would love to take something to my priest about not allowing applause during the liturgy. But, until you do, please don't act as if it is such a black and white case closed issue. Also, someone should send that image to the pope, because when he celebrated mass here in the United States, there was many, many times when applause broke out, and I saw the pope looking out over the crowd smiling. According to some of you, I should be convinced that he was smiling because "the essence of liturgy had totally disappeared". Is this the point that you were trying to make? That the pope smiles when the essence of the liturgy disappears? That's an odd way to show your own fidelity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 [quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1303409229' post='2230890'] No need to go further. It is incredibly clear. [/quote] Yes, thank you. It is incredibly clear that we should not applaud for [b]human achievement[/b]. This argument ended back on page 1. We are now on page 5. Now we're discussing applause for reasons [b]other than[/b] human achievement. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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