Nihil Obstat Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 [quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1302903594' post='2229046'] In Traditional Latin Mass the priest stands facing away from the congregation, correct? I was reading an article by a priest about celebrating mass this way, it was really interesting. [/quote] That's correct, and IMO a far better way to do things. In fact the rubrics for the Novus Ordo assume this orientation as well. The problem with our versus populum orientation that makes up the majority of Masses is that it creates a circle in which the priest and the congregation address each other. The focus becomes some abstract idea of "the community", or worst still the celebrant himself (or, as it's fashionable but incorrect to say now, the 'presider'). When oriented ad orientem, the priest is now clearly at the head of the congregation, and obviously offering prayers *on their behalf*. It's no longer speaking to each other, but the priest going up to God for us. This actually happens in a rather literal sense. Look at this part from the prayers at the foot of the altar from the Traditional Latin Mass: "S.And I will go in unto the Altar of God: unto God, Who giveth joy to my youth." The priest acts as an alter Christus, an other Christ. When he ascends the altar, he takes with him our prayers, and purifies them through the Sacrifice. He is in a very real sense taking our prayers up to heaven on our behalf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 praying the rosary during mass is not an abuse. it's not the most advisable thing, and should generally be discouraged, but it's a pious practice that is indeed a means by which some people delved deeper into the mass. I have prayed a rosary during mass, and felt that it brought me deeper into the mass. the rosary is a meditative prayer. do the hail mary's distract you from the mystery you're meditating on? two levels, the hail mary's, and the mystery. praying a rosary in mass, you meditate upon the mass connected to the mystery... nothing like seeing the infant Jesus lifted above the altar in the Eucharist as you meditate upon the nativity in the rosary. not something you should do every time, but there are many many ways to enter deeper into the mysteries of the mass. while it is generally discouraged, i find it distasteful to scoff at the practice like it was terrible, like it could even be categorized in near the same category as an "abuse". people who pray the rosary at mass are generally capable of walking and chewing gum at the same time, they're not just ignoring the mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 Going to confession during Mass also used to be extremely common (back from the days when the Eucharist was received rarely, and only directly after confession), and the rumours in the wind indicate that maybe we'll be seeing a bit more of it in the future. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 not to detract from the topic. I just don't think we should totally condemn people who pray a rosary during mass. I really don't like clappng in mass, though if there are occassional exceptions, fine. I mean, I've been in a mass before where I did feel the impetus to clap... but it was like a kneejerk thing, like when you get the impetus to genuflect in a movie theatre and then you realize how stupid you look. but basically, Benedict's quote about clapping gives a very deep point which is at the heart of the liturgical crisis in the Church--the spirit of true liturgy is swapped for religious entertainment. ultimately, regardless of the books being used, the army of people "putting on the show" is going to harm whatever liturgy is put out there until it is unrecognizable for what it was meant to be. it's an entire atmosphere that is foreign to the liturgy that pervades in so many places... clapping is an indicator that people are in that atmosphere. ultimately, liturgical music and liturgical practice should make all the people involved, the cantors and the lectors and the priests, be overshadowed by the mass. when you're clapping for the cantor, the cantor hasn't faded into the background of the liturgical worship, but has stood in the foreground of a reliigous entertainment show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 I have to wonder... would you clap during Mass if Jesus Christ were seated on a throne in the Sanctuary, with light streaming down from His wounds? With the angels surrounding Him singing Sanctus!, and with Him staring straight into your soul, burning away your sin? Would we chat before Mass, or even (I shudder every single time) at the sign of peace? Would we let the Canedo-fools play guitar solos in the middle of a jazzy Gospel number? Would we let the trite, shallow feel-good tunes of Marty Haugen greet Him, or would we demand the distinct, beautiful, prayerful Chants of our rite? Wouldn't we fall flat on our faces and cry "Domine, non sum dignus!", and wouldn't we rather die the most horrific death rather than let Him be disrespected? ...and yet, He is there. [img]http://www.iconsexplained.com/iec/lib/00058_christ_pantocrator_mosaic_hagia_sophia_492x600.jpg[/img] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudreyGrace Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 the direction this thread is going reminded me of this video, which i think in some ways can sum up a majority of the debates here on PM [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1FOOto-JpU[/media] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeteorShower Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 At the church I attend, the only time we clap is when there are baptisms. Would that be considered disrespectful? Besides that thought, we never clap. Except one time (It was either Easter or Christmas when the church was overflowing with "Christmas Catholics" as the priest calls them) and they all clapped after the homily. The priest was like... It was rather awkward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 [quote name='MeteorShower' timestamp='1302960699' post='2229221'] At the church I attend, the only time we clap is when there are baptisms. Would that be considered disrespectful? Besides that thought, we never clap. Except one time (It was either Easter or Christmas when the church was overflowing with "Christmas Catholics" as the priest calls them) and they all clapped after the homily. The priest was like... It was rather awkward. [/quote] I don't believe it's appropriate to clap after a baptism either. Like I said, there's a time and a place. We can clap at a reception after Mass. During Mass, we're worshiping God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 [quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1302960290' post='2229220'] the direction this thread is going reminded me of this video, which i think in some ways can sum up a majority of the debates here on PM [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1FOOto-JpU[/media] [/quote] Someone needs to give that "traditionalist" a drink. Trads drink a lot more hard liquor than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmaD2006 Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1302900241' post='2229010'] I don't mean to pick on you or anything; I can tell that you intend only to honour God, so I'm not questioning your motivation, but I do question whether clapping is ever appropriate in the context of Mass. [/quote] Well we tend to usually disagree on things But ... the good thing is that we can agree to disagree! (And I usually refrain from posting because I expect a storm of posts). I do get your point though ... although I will say one thing. The day the new spanish choir nails a song, I will clap -- because it will be a major improvement to the beauty of the liturgy! Don't worry -- that'll take a few years at least. Oh ... AG -- loved the video. I wished I was as bad as Stanford then I'd say ooh-- that's me. But no he's over board. By 10000s. So is Bill. By millions. Edited April 16, 2011 by cmariadiaz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 [quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1302973474' post='2229253'] Well we tend to usually disagree on things [/quote] We do? Did not know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmaD2006 Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 Can I be grandma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudreyGrace Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 [quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1302973474' post='2229253'] Oh ... AG -- loved the video. I wished I was as bad as Stanford then I'd say ooh-- that's me. But no he's over board. By 10000s. So is Bill. By millions. [/quote] the over-boardness makes it the best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmaD2006 Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1302973953' post='2229254'] We do? Did not know that. [/quote] Well ... I may realize it more than you do since 99% of the time I decide not to post. Besides I know quite well that you'd walk into my parish and walk straight out in disgust Especially the spanish Mass. Except maybe the latin Mass that I think is offered once a month (I think -- I've never gone to it at the parish; I *may* have to bite the bullet and go once since as part of council I should know about it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 I've never had to walk out of a Mass before. I will for sure if it's invalidated (which, thank God, hasn't happened yet), or if the abuse is so egregious that it bothers my conscience to remain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts