Nihil Obstat Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 [quote name='cmariadiaz' timestamp='1302899819' post='2229005'] I don't think applause is appropriate most of the times in Mass. But -- I don't agree with saying never. As a singer/musician I've only had that happen once ... and the moment where it happened, the two of us (I did a duet) were dumbstruck at what just happened. God did something special during that song. We knew it in our hearts and we were convinced of it, because it wasn't us. The applause happened at a parish where we *never* applauded. And I think all of us (priest included) realized that what happened was a special moment. Finally -- in a moment like that one, I can imagine Jesus' reaction. It wasn't condemnation by any means. [/quote] Were they clapping for you? The question I always as is "why?" Why are we clapping? Are we clapping because doing so brings glory to God? Never seen it. It's always to honour a person. Clapping is not part of worship; we don't do it to adore God, or to worship Him, because it's simply not how legitimate worship is done. When people clap, they're clapping for another person, and while that is appropriate elsewhere, it is not in the context of the Mass, which is meant to worship God. Worship is the purpose of the Mass. The communal aspect, the prayer aspect, all are only a legitimate part of Mass inasmuch as they are done in the context of worship to God. I don't mean to pick on you or anything; I can tell that you intend only to honour God, so I'm not questioning your motivation, but I do question whether clapping is ever appropriate in the context of Mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1302897051' post='2228977'] If I had the choice (I don't yet, but I will soon enough) I would attend the Traditional Latin Mass exclusively, and this is part of the reason. [/quote] I understand your reasoning in today's environment, but sadly, if the Traditional Latin Mass was the norm, we'd still have clapping and abuses. The liturgy is not the problem, proper education is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1302900928' post='2229015'] I understand your reasoning in today's environment, but sadly, if the Traditional Latin Mass was the norm, we'd still have clapping and abuses. The liturgy is not the problem, proper education is. [/quote] Lex Orandi Lex Credendi. If the Traditional Latin Mass were celebrated everywhere the way it is celebrated now, 99% of liturgical abuse would disappear, and the average Catholic would know far more about his faith. The Liturgy *is* proper education. There is no better way to learn the faith than to follow a faithful Mass and to reflect on it, to offer your prayers up with the priest, and to worship with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AudreyGrace Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1302901112' post='2229016'] Lex Orandi Lex Credendi. If the Traditional Latin Mass were celebrated everywhere the way it is celebrated now, 99% of liturgical abuse would disappear, and the average Catholic would know far more about his faith. The Liturgy *is* proper education. There is no better way to learn the faith than to follow a faithful Mass and to reflect on it, to offer your prayers up with the priest, and to worship with him. [/quote] i haven't had the privilege of attending a Traditional Latin Mass, so correct me if I'm wrong but... isn't the entire Mass (besides homily?) in Latin? If that were the only Mass I ever went to, it would be hard for me to learn a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1302900241' post='2229010'] I don't mean to pick on you or anything; I can tell that you intend only to honour God, so I'm not questioning your motivation, but I do question whether clapping is ever appropriate in the context of Mass. [/quote] I am usually very against clapping in mass. Also, I completely agree with B16 in that image you posted. But... I do remember one time where I actually did clap in mass. It wasn't for human achievement. It was after a homily. The parish I was attending was having a lot of issues with a liberal priest and liturgical abuses, etc. Well, a new priest came in. In one of his first homilies, he just totally went hardcore about ending the liturgical abuses, promoting confession, starting adoration at the parish, etc. After the homily, the congregation started clapping--me included. I don't think it was innapropriate at that moment. I don't think we were really praising any human achievement, but showing support and agreement with the things he said needed to be done. I don't know--the appropriateness isn't always so black and white at times like that. I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1302901112' post='2229016'] Lex Orandi Lex Credendi. If the Traditional Latin Mass were celebrated everywhere the way it is celebrated now, 99% of liturgical abuse would disappear, and the average Catholic would know far more about his faith. [/quote] Oh, I agree with this statement for sure. My point was that if the Traditional Latin Mass was the norm, we both know that it certainly would [b]not[/b] be celebrated everywhere the way it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1302898972' post='2228996'] In pursuit of intellectual percision/honesty and clarity, he said that as a Cardinal, not as Pope Benedict XVI. Though I absolutely agree. I had the priviledge of being politely accosted (after Mass) by a parent of one of the children in the children's choir for not clapping. That was fun. [/quote] I hope it was in the Church and a woman, cause then you could tell her she should be silent and really watch some fireworks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groo the Wanderer Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1302901112' post='2229016'] Lex Orandi Lex Credendi. If the Traditional Latin Mass were celebrated everywhere the way it is celebrated now, 99% of liturgical abuse would disappear, and the average Catholic would know far more about his faith. [/quote] I have to disagree with you. Back when the Traditional Latin Mass was the norm, liturgical abuse abounded as well. Likely not so much by clergy, but definitely by the people. I cannot count the number of times I have heard older Catholics tell me about how they used to pray the rosary during Mass. THAT is an abuse. One is to participate in the Mass by following along with the prayers and singing/reciting them at the proper times. No excuse considering even then they had latin/english missals. Also, this carptastic lack of catechesis we see everywhere started looong before V2. The NO Mass has nothing to do with the Church doing a lousy job of teaching her children for the last 70 years. I love the Traditional Latin Mass, but simply having the Traditional Latin Mass is not the solution.... Edited April 15, 2011 by Groo the Wanderer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarah147 Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1302896645' post='2228970'] Clapping during Mass is completely inappropriate. [img]http://i682.photobucket.com/albums/vv189/Nihil_Obstat/n1311204347_126353_8292.jpg[/img] [/quote] Woa. A w esome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 [quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1302901326' post='2229017'] i haven't had the privilege of attending a Traditional Latin Mass, so correct me if I'm wrong but... isn't the entire Mass (besides homily?) in Latin? If that were the only Mass I ever went to, it would be hard for me to learn a lot. [/quote] I used to think so too, but there's two things about that. First of all, on a more immediate level, translations are provided. Everyone gets lost at first, and it takes a bit of practice, but after a while it's not hard at all. It took me about four or five tries to not get lost anymore. The prayers are extremely edifying; more-so than those of the Novus Ordo. They are theologically rich and trascendent. On a deeper level though, it's not necessarily about literally following along, in a strict sense. For instance, almost the entirety of the Canon is said in a low voice by the priest, which the congregation cannot hear. The idea isn't exactly for you to follow along word for word, because the priest offers those prayers on the behalf of his congregation. It's more about uniting your own prayers with his, as he purifies them through the Holy Sacrifice and offers them for you. That sense has been mostly lost lately in the Novus Ordo, which I think is regrettable. So with that understanding, simply being present, uniting your own personal prayers with the priest, and participating interiorly with the Mass offers far more grace than you might realize. To follow word for word is great, but that is not the limit of participation. There's so much more to it than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted April 15, 2011 Author Share Posted April 15, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1302902979' post='2229040'] I used to think so too, but there's two things about that. First of all, on a more immediate level, translations are provided. Everyone gets lost at first, and it takes a bit of practice, but after a while it's not hard at all. It took me about four or five tries to not get lost anymore. The prayers are extremely edifying; more-so than those of the Novus Ordo. They are theologically rich and trascendent. On a deeper level though, it's not necessarily about literally following along, in a strict sense. For instance, almost the entirety of the Canon is said in a low voice by the priest, which the congregation cannot hear. The idea isn't exactly for you to follow along word for word, because the priest offers those prayers on the behalf of his congregation. It's more about uniting your own prayers with his, as he purifies them through the Holy Sacrifice and offers them for you. That sense has been mostly lost lately in the Novus Ordo, which I think is regrettable. So with that understanding, simply being present, uniting your own personal prayers with the priest, and participating interiorly with the Mass offers far more grace than you might realize. To follow word for word is great, but that is not the limit of participation. There's so much more to it than that. [/quote] In Traditional Latin Mass the priest stands facing away from the congregation, correct? I was reading an article by a priest about celebrating mass this way, it was really interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted April 15, 2011 Share Posted April 15, 2011 Years back I was at a Mass in which people started clapping about something (I don't remember what exactly) which inspired Fr Benedict Groeschel to get on the mic and give an unintentionally funny chastisement. Only he can get away with saying things like "shaddap!" and "knock it off!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1302898972' post='2228996'] I had the priviledge of being politely accosted (after Mass) by a parent of one of the children in the children's choir for not clapping. That was fun. [/quote] Did you suggest to her just precisely out of which orifice she should blow it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1302901519' post='2229022'] Oh, I agree with this statement for sure. My point was that if the Traditional Latin Mass was the norm, we both know that it certainly would [b]not[/b] be celebrated everywhere the way it is now. [/quote] You are right, people could be saying the rosary or reading books, the priest could be racing thru the mass or mumbling so you hears absolutely nothing, people could be standing around all during mass waiting for confession, plus you can actually hear the people confessing, you could be hearing the exact same 10 hymns every week, you could hear the bells ring and ushers would appear from their smoke break outside, many people wouldn't go to communion because the fast had started at midnight the night before and it was noon. Mass abuse is not new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wikitiki Posted April 16, 2011 Share Posted April 16, 2011 (edited) Oh man, this happens all the time. And whenever I just quietly keep my hands down my mom glares at me like I'm booing or something. Edited April 16, 2011 by Wikitiki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts