Ban On The Islamic Face Veil

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1303698083' post='2232034']
Dearest Lillabertt, thank you for the correction you so kindly slapped on my post, although, if you take the time to read the passage you quoted from my post you can see that I was not addressing the burkha, nor did I write anything about it, I was clearly addressing the face veils and only the face veils.

ed
[/quote]


ok, have it your way:

[i]
Dear Ed,

Mohammad's wives did not wear [s]burqas[/s] face-veils. They wore abaya - this is like a long dress. Only later did they add a veil (headcover), and when they did it was in imitation of the Christians. [/i]

better now?

[Mr.Cat]

In a free and open society, people must be free and welcome to be different or unpopular. From the passing familiarity with the subject, it violates an individuals religious liberty and freedom, and of expression. If someone could give me reasonable and valid cause to violate an individuals liberties and intrude upon a free society, or rather a real danger/threat... then the french may be acting appropriately.

As outmoded, indoctrinated, oppressive, insensitive, and misogynisticas I see the face veiling... it doesn't matter. It is their choice and until that choice endangers someone or themselves, in a free society their free to act. To be fair, I have Muslim friends and they admit that its not a religious obligation, perhaps similar to a Catholic wearing a brown scapular... not obligatory but definitely encouraged. It's seems to be chiefly cultural. Which, some veiling can be very beautiful..

Edited April 26, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[ParadiseFound]

Just to let you know, they haven't banned face veils. They've banned the public wearing of garments that cover the face, which includes face veils.

[MithLuin]

Relevant vocabulary:

[img]http://jadmadi.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/hijab1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/voile-islamique-burqa-hijab-niqab-tchador-reuters2.jpg[/img]

As you can see, the typical hijab would not be a problem under the French law, as the face is not concealed. The niqab and burqa, however, are now outlawed in public. Women who feel they cannot leave the house without being attired in this way will now face the unpleasant prospect of being confined to their homes indefinitely.

I [i]do[/i] think there are situations where failure to remove a face covering is inappropriate. Photo ID, for instance. I was wearing a handkerchief tied around my hair when I went for a driver's license photo once, and they required me to remove it for the picture. Not a big deal, though no one likes to have mussed hair in their driver's license photo.

A garment that hinders your peripheral vision is probably not something that is appropriate to wear while driving. A full mask isn't something that should be worn in a bank or airport...because these are things criminals do to conceal their identity. But in the end...it is an issue of cultural acceptance and expectations about what is 'normal' in public places.

If you take your kids to the park and someone completely concealed sits on a bench watching the playground, it's easy to get creeped out. If all the women are wearing this outfit, there is nothing sinister about the circumstance.

France has ~ 5 million Muslims, though most of them do not wear the niqab or burqa.

[Amppax]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1303849843' post='2233560']
Relevant vocabulary:

[img]http://jadmadi.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/hijab1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://sheikyermami.com/wp-content/uploads/voile-islamique-burqa-hijab-niqab-tchador-reuters2.jpg[/img]

As you can see, the typical hijab would not be a problem under the French law, as the face is not concealed. The niqab and burqa, however, are now outlawed in public. Women who feel they cannot leave the house without being attired in this way will now face the unpleasant prospect of being confined to their homes indefinitely.

I [i]do[/i] think there are situations where failure to remove a face covering is inappropriate. Photo ID, for instance. I was wearing a handkerchief tied around my hair when I went for a driver's license photo once, and they required me to remove it for the picture. Not a big deal, though no one likes to have mussed hair in their driver's license photo.

A garment that hinders your peripheral vision is probably not something that is appropriate to wear while driving. A full mask isn't something that should be worn in a bank or airport...because these are things criminals do to conceal their identity. But in the end...it is an issue of cultural acceptance and expectations about what is 'normal' in public places.

If you take your kids to the park and someone completely concealed sits on a bench watching the playground, it's easy to get creeped out. If all the women are wearing this outfit, there is nothing sinister about the circumstance.

France has ~ 5 million Muslims, though most of them do not wear the niqab or burqa.
[/quote]

Thanks! that's really helpful. Just to add my two cents worth, my Mom, a devout Catholic, spent a year teaching at a Muslim school in our area. For the most part, the women wore the hijab, but other than that they dressed no differently then anyone else (although they did cover their arms and legs at all times).During that year, I learned more about my faith, helping my Mom sometimes, than I had in 8+ years of Catholic schooling up to that point. My whole point with that is 1) exposure to other cultures and viewpoints can actually be a good thing; it helped me strengthen my faith, and 2) the face veil wearing bunch is really, really small. That being said, it doesn't seem right to me that they restrict this, but what do I know? It's one thing to restrict in for ID photos and such, its another thing to effect (or is it affect? those always get me) a ban on wearing them at all, that's a little bit heavy-handed for my taste.

[ParadiseFound]

It's effect.

[Amppax]

[quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1303862544' post='2233680']
It's effect.
[/quote]

Thanks[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/clap2.gif[/img]I feel much smarter know!

[ParadiseFound]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1303863217' post='2233691']
Thanks[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/clap2.gif[/img]I feel much smarter know!
[/quote]
That's good to now!

[philothea]

I guess in a very roundabout way, wearing a face veil is a form of religious expression (not the one you think, though) so banning them is a kind of assault on religious freedom.

BUT.

Women having to cover their faces is not a requirement of "standard" Islam. It's required by some extreme sects. These sects claim that women are completely corrupt and can't be allowed to be seen by any man other than their husband, and can't be allowed outside unescorted, they have no rights, hold no property, have to eat by themselves, whatever is leftover after the men have finished, etc..

It's really not religion. It's slavery. And OF COURSE the women are afraid to go against it. They've been brainwashed and abused their whole lives. They are beaten and raped and have acid thrown on them when they show their faces. What do you expect?

That's why the fine on men who force women to cover their faces is much, much more severe than anything that is done to the women. They're supposed to be treated very politely and gently. Everyone knows the women aren't doing it to themselves. France is trying to emancipate a class of people living in their country.

So, yeah, it's an assault on the "religious" freedom of men to treat their wives and daughters like slaves. I'm not opposed.

[dominicansoul]

i want a burqini

[MithLuin]

Generally, 'affect' is the verb, and 'effect' is the noun. So, if you can say 'the effect' in your sentence...you want the one with the 'e'. In most cases. There in an exception to this basic rule of thumb, of course, but it's a good start for sorting them out.

[quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1303847419' post='2233533']
Just to let you know, they haven't banned face veils. They've banned the public wearing of garments that cover the face, which includes face veils.
[/quote]

And ninjas.

[img]http://factinisfactomelettes.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/ninja.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.ninjasteve.com/ninjas/1999448353_1d8578c96b_o.jpg[/img]

Edited April 27, 2011 by MithLuin

[Socrates]

[quote name='philothea' timestamp='1303864981' post='2233707']
I guess in a very roundabout way, wearing a face veil is a form of religious expression (not the one you think, though) so banning them is a kind of assault on religious freedom.

BUT.

Women having to cover their faces is not a requirement of "standard" Islam. It's required by some extreme sects. These sects claim that women are completely corrupt and can't be allowed to be seen by any man other than their husband, and can't be allowed outside unescorted, they have no rights, hold no property, have to eat by themselves, whatever is leftover after the men have finished, etc..

It's really not religion. It's slavery. And OF COURSE the women are afraid to go against it. They've been brainwashed and abused their whole lives. They are beaten and raped and have acid thrown on them when they show their faces. What do you expect?

That's why the fine on men who force women to cover their faces is much, much more severe than anything that is done to the women. They're supposed to be treated very politely and gently. Everyone knows the women aren't doing it to themselves. France is trying to emancipate a class of people living in their country.

So, yeah, it's an assault on the "religious" freedom of men to treat their wives and daughters like slaves. I'm not opposed.
[/quote]
Well said, Philothea!

These face coverings are part of a form of false religion that is barbaric and oppressive, as is the Sharia Law those folks want.

And for the record, I don't think that every and all religious practices ought to be respected equally under the law.

Frankly, the liberal idea of absolute religious equality and tolerance is hogwash and a sham.

Must we, on account of "religious tolerance," allow people who wish to resurrect, say the old Aztec religion, which demands mass human sacrifice, to freely practice their religion?
Or what about a sick satanic cult which indulges in ritual rape and murder of children?

Obviously, not all religious beliefs and practices are worthy of respect and toleration in a civilized society.

I'm not saying that fundamentalist Islam is necessarily on the same level as satanism or human-sacrificing paganism, but the principle is the same.

And yes, I'm 100% biased in favor of the Christian Faith, just we can get that out of the way.

I just wish the West would reclaim its Christian identity, rather than sinking into anti-religious secularism and mindless political correctness.

[AudreyGrace]

Not sure if this was already mentioned in this thread, but is there any significant connection to Muslims wearing face veils and threats to national security? If it had already posed a problem in the past, then I'd understand the ban on the face veil. But... do bombers or terrorists typically cover their faces during the act? I don't think so... I only ask this because people immediately connect Muslims to terrorism (which is very discriminatory and wrong, in my opinion). Unless there is reasonable proof that women who veil their face are a threat to national security, then I believe that this is definitely a violation of religious freedom.

What came to my mind was the case of a student here in the USA who wore a rosary around his neck and was suspended from school, only because gangs in the area sometimes wore rosaries around their necks (a highly inappropriate new fashion trend). When he was asked to remove his rosary and hand it to the administrator, he refused. He wore it for religious reasons, not for malicious identification purposes. While the mistakes of the few obstructed the student's religious freedom to have a rosary on him at all times (to avoid sin, to have at the ready, whatever his reasons were), so are the mistakes of the radical Muslims obstructing women's religious freedom to dress the way they believe their religion and faith wants them to.

If I were in their position, and told that I could not wear something that I felt was a crucial part of my religion, and therefore my identity, I would be extremely sorrowful. Again, if there WAS reasonable proof that women in face veils are dangerous, then I understand why the ban would be necessary.

[add]

a face is a terrible thing to waste
i like faces. i like facebook. is that wrong? this face veil thing is creepy. why is it for woman only, could it be a male dominance thing?

a couple of years ago i had a supplier that i work with from work drop off some supplies at my home, my wife was caught by surprise as i did not tell her that someone one was coming by, etc. anyway i got yelled at for not warning her as she had not put on a face (Makeup). i was in the doghouse foe weeks. mind you , the Mrs hardly uses make up and doesn't go crazy like some ladies do with all that makeup stuff.

however in a church or sanctuary a veil or head covering is quite different, as opposed to public place
not to be redundant, but a face really is a terrible thing to waste

[Amppax]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1303943876' post='2234021']
Well said, Philothea!

These face coverings are part of a form of false religion that is barbaric and oppressive, as is the Sharia Law those folks want.

And for the record, I don't think that every and all religious practices ought to be respected equally under the law.

Frankly, the liberal idea of absolute religious equality and tolerance is hogwash and a sham.

Must we, on account of "religious tolerance," allow people who wish to resurrect, say the old Aztec religion, which demands mass human sacrifice, to freely practice their religion?
Or what about a sick satanic cult which indulges in ritual rape and murder of children?

Obviously, not all religious beliefs and practices are worthy of respect and toleration in a civilized society.

I'm not saying that fundamentalist Islam is necessarily on the same level as satanism or human-sacrificing paganism, but the principle is the same.

And yes, I'm 100% biased in favor of the Christian Faith, just we can get that out of the way.

I just wish the West would reclaim its Christian identity, rather than sinking into anti-religious secularism and mindless political correctness.
[/quote]


[font=arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif][size=2]I am 100% biased in favor of the Christian Faith too, I think most of us here are. But that doesn't mean that I think that gives us the right to impose restrictions upon their religion. Obviously if a religion involves practices that are immoral or harmful to others, society has every right, and even a duty, to restrict them. I really don't see the wearing of a face veil (or whatever the correct term is) as something that is inherently immoral or harmful. If they choose to freely wear one, then that's their choice. We should definitely take steps to make sure it is not forcibly imposed upon them, which i think is the intent of the French ban, but for a government to do this by forcing them [i]not [/i]to wear it is just nonsensical.[/size][/font]