Ban On The Islamic Face Veil

[add]

France has imposed a ban on the Islamic face veil on the principle of secularism and the principle of equality between man and woman." The country of Spain is expected to follow suit.
Are actions such as this a violation of Religious freedom or not?

[Amppax]

Although I think that a face veil is a little excessive, banning them definitely is a violation of religious freedom

[havok579257]

absolutly this is against religious freedoms. if this ban is upheld wordwide, just you wait. the next thing banned will be catholic women's mantila/veil.

the governments of the world, trying to eliminate all faith, one religion at a time.

[Nihil Obstat]

I am very against the banning of face veils.

I don't even know what this poll means. Did Dairygirl proof it for you?

[Ice_nine]

c'mon now! People should be able to go on about their lives without the nagging reminder that perhaps God exists and a little humility and modesty is in order.

[Cherie]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1302788319' post='2228622']
if this ban is upheld wordwide, just you wait. the next thing banned will be catholic women's mantila/veil.

[/quote]

In Alabama, when I was a Sister, because a woman refused to remove her face veil for her driver's license picture, they put a ban on [i]all[/i] veils for the photo, even a standard Muslim woman's hijab which shows the face, and even veils worn by religious Sisters. There was no way we were going to remove that part of our holy habit for that photo; we had some legal help from a Catholic law group (the ACLU even offered to help us! lol - imagine that!) and finally the DMV altered their rule to allow us to wear our veils. It makes sense: we wore our habit [i]everywhere[/i] in public, so it would have been stupid to have a driver's license photo without it: no one would have recognized that the picture matched!

Anyway, the point is, it was a violation of religious freedom that affected [i]both[/i] Catholics and Muslims.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1302811971' post='2228714']
In Alabama, when I was a Sister, because a woman refused to remove her face veil for her driver's license picture, they put a ban on [i]all[/i] veils for the photo, even a standard Muslim woman's hijab which shows the face, and even veils worn by religious Sisters. There was no way we were going to remove that part of our holy habit for that photo; we had some legal help from a Catholic law group (the ACLU even offered to help us! lol - imagine that!) and finally the DMV altered their rule to allow us to wear our veils. It makes sense: we wore our habit [i]everywhere[/i] in public, so it would have been stupid to have a driver's license photo without it: no one would have recognized that the picture matched!

Anyway, the point is, it was a violation of religious freedom that affected [i]both[/i] Catholics and Muslims.
[/quote]
What exactly is the point of photo ID if you can't see the face?

[TeresaBenedicta]

The wording on the actual poll is ambiguous. The question itself doesn't make sense. I voted according to the question you posed in the post.

Yes, I think this is a huge violation of religious freedom. Do they think they are liberating women by doing this?

[Cherie]

[quote name='ardillacid' timestamp='1302812175' post='2228716']
What exactly is the point of photo ID if you can't see the face?
[/quote]

Yes, I think that covering the face completely is a bit absurd for a driver's license photo.

But I see nothing wrong with wearing a hijab, wimple, or other kind of veil in which the face and features are clearly visible, especially if this is something you are wearing 100% of the time in public.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='CherieMadame' timestamp='1302812952' post='2228724']
Yes, I think that covering the face completely is a bit absurd for a driver's license photo.

But I see nothing wrong with wearing a hijab, wimple, or other kind of veil in which the face and features are clearly visible, especially if this is something you are wearing 100% of the time in public.
[/quote]
Is that what got banned in france?

[add]

[quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1302812798' post='2228720']
The wording on the actual poll is ambiguous. The question itself doesn't make sense. I voted according to the question you posed in the post.

Yes, I think this is a huge violation of religious freedom. Do they think they are liberating women by doing this?
[/quote]

sorry if my wording didn't make sense, or sounds ambiguous.
this ban is in my opinion is liberating women, in a good way. It is clear that the Muslim culture treats women as less than second class human beings. Bhurkas have nothing to do with modesty, and everything to do with shaming women.

[havok579257]

[quote name='apparently' timestamp='1302824479' post='2228782']
sorry if my wording didn't make sense, or sounds ambiguous.
this ban is in my opinion is liberating women, in a good way. It is clear that the Muslim culture treats women as less than second class human beings. Bhurkas have nothing to do with modesty, and everything to do with shaming women.
[/quote]


great arguement. its the same ones liberals will use to condemn catholic women wearing veils, no women being priests and women being looked at as unequal in the catholic church. glad you agree with that liberal croutons.

[TeresaBenedicta]

[quote name='apparently' timestamp='1302824479' post='2228782']
sorry if my wording didn't make sense, or sounds ambiguous.
this ban is in my opinion is liberating women, in a good way. It is clear that the Muslim culture treats women as less than second class human beings. Bhurkas have nothing to do with modesty, and everything to do with shaming women.
[/quote]

If the women themselves are agreeable to the practice, then it's not oppression. Your argument sounds a lot like my extended family's argument against religious life. What they don't get is that if I embrace it willingly, it is hardly oppression.

[Ice_nine]

burqa = face veil?

I thought burqas were the whole body thangs. So what are you asking about? Or maybe I'm just dumb nevermind

even IF certain Islamic clothing is oppressive to women (which is a big if as, it varies from case to case) it seems rather odd for the government to swoop in and say "we're gonna tell you what YOU can't wear so that YOU won't be oppressed. No thanks needed. Just doin our job."

I guess I don't see it practical that a bunch of Islamic women are sitting around like "Finally! Now I can no longer be oppressed because the government is gonna protect me from my culturally-backwards husband! YAY!"

I see it is this. There are A) Islamic women choose to wear burqas of their own free will with their full consent for either religious or cultural reasons B) Islamic women who wear burqas because they have been conditioned to believe their adherence to traditional dress it contingent upon their devotion to God and thus their salvation C) Islamic women who are married to controlling, abusive a-holes who force them to wear burqas or face an honor killing

you can't tell group A they [i]can't[/i] wear something. My God, it's not a government's job to tell people what intelligent human beings can wear. It's so ludicrous that it's almost laughable.

OK so what about group B? The group who still holds these "superstitions" and live in unnecessary fear of offending God and their husbands, those poor women, all afraid and all. If only they would embrace our enlightened philosophy they could be liberated! Well, if religion is woven into the fabric of a family, or a culture, or a person then reconciling faith with the secular culture they inhabit is always gonna have tension and perhaps come with a little bit of anxiety. Secular folks sometimes think "as soon as they see the light they will change to our ways and they'll be happier and we'll be happier and we can all hold hands and dance in the bubblegum fields and ride our pet unicorns! And beaver dam it if they refuse to even look at the light, we're just gonna have to make them. They'll be mad at first but they'll thank us later.

And as for group C, you think that a lil puny law is gonna liberate those women? Come on now. If there are fundamentalist Muslim men who view women as their property and he sees his wife walking around Paris showing all her stuff (by this I mean the eyes, the chin, perhaps the nose?) he's gonna be all cool with that? And the wife can just say "oh honey it's the law" and it's all peachy from there? Please . . .

So not only is a law banning this type of dress absolutely impractical in almost all cases, the government can't and shouldn't try to tell grown adults how to dress. It's insane. And it's a form of cultural imperialism, ironic of a liberal, open-minded, and tolerant country eh? Nevermind y'all already know the hypocrisy of the tolerance-movement.

peace

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1302845660' post='2228865']
even IF certain Islamic clothing is oppressive to women (which is a big if as, it varies from case to case) it seems rather odd for the government to swoop in and say "we're gonna tell you what YOU can't wear so that YOU won't be oppressed. No thanks needed. Just doin our job."

[/quote]
THANK YOU. Keep their idiot noses out of where they don't belong.