Abortion - States Rights

[RezaMikhaeil]

I don't think that our government could afford to put every single prisoner in solitary confinement. Not to mention that would cause more an international crisis with human rights organizations then lethal injection already does.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1305524385' post='2242204']
I don't think that our government could afford to put every single prisoner in solitary confinement. Not to mention that would cause more an international crisis with human rights organizations then lethal injection already does.
[/quote]


I agree,the cost, even of only putting violent offenders in solitary would be staggering.

I do not believe that there is a more moral way to assure that innocent human life is protected from murderers than the death penalty.

people escape from prision a lot more than you might think, and they often do terrible things when on the run, particularly if they are in for life anyway.

Dead men don't escape, they don't rape, they don't assualt, they don't kill. Further,if people know they can be killed, it gives some people (cetianly not all) pause becore acting in certian ways.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305521221' post='2242185']
except in neither of the cases discussed has anyone been proven innocent.


Innocents die all the time as a result of policy decisions, we do not intentionally kill innocents, but it happens. if a policy which prevents the immoral placement of tens of thousands in inhuman treatment has collateral damage on rare occasions, so be it. As long as everything has been done fairly to determine guilt, the man was given a fair trial and all are working in good faith that is all one can ask.
[/quote]

the church teaches the ends never justify the means. that is exactly what you are arguing for. this is against church teaching.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305525467' post='2242205']
I agree,the cost, even of only putting violent offenders in solitary would be staggering.

I do not believe that there is a more moral way to assure that innocent human life is protected from murderers than the death penalty.

people escape from prision a lot more than you might think, and they often do terrible things when on the run, particularly if they are in for life anyway.

Dead men don't escape, they don't rape, they don't assualt, they don't kill. Further,if people know they can be killed, it gives some people (cetianly not all) pause becore acting in certian ways.
[/quote]


if prison escapes happen a lot more then we think like you say, prove it with numbers.

who should be executed? what if someone who commits a murder can be non violnet in prison and be rehabbed and put back into society and no murder again. should we just execute this person before giving them a chance at rehab? what about a rapist. what if someone in jail for rape like the teacher who was sleeping with her high school year old student boyfriend. should we put her to death before she has a chance to be rehabbed? who decides who gets a chance at rehab or not? who decides who gets a chance to live or not? is it moral to put someone to death who can be rehabbed and never commit another violent act in his life?

[Groo the Wanderer]

this is a totally random post injected to break the monotony of reading posts where Catholics are just ranting at each other. Too much emo





Let's discuss funky shoe odors across the world instead!

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1305562508' post='2242304']
this is a totally random post injected to break the monotony of reading posts where Catholics are just ranting at each other. Too much emo
[/quote]
Seriously, and I'm not sure anyone was bothering to comprehend what was said.

To summarize:
Winchester and Don believe that the DP is acceptable, Havok and Reza do not.

Havok and Reza believe that the remarks of the CCC demonstrate that the Catholic Church does not allow Catholics to accept the DP as permissable. Reza understandably seems confused about the difference between the pastoral sections and the teaching sections of the CCC.

Havok and Reza have implied that Win and Don are disobedient Catholics because they don't accept the pastoral teachings in the CCC. Reza abandons logic to respond to W&D merely claiming 'fail'.

Win and Don respond with personal attacks, which are returned in kind.

Who is right? Shockingly, everyone. (minus the personal attacks.) As stated by the previous pope, the DP should only be a last resort measure. As stated by the current pope, Catholics are allowed to have differences of opinion about what constitutes a last resort.

The disagreement you guys are having is not actually about the death penalty at all, but rather what constitutes "last resort measures." W&D view the DP as a less horrible act than do H&R. Both can be defended: God will give mercy/justice to a soul after the body is dead, justifying W&D; we should strive for justice and mercy in this life, justifying H&R.

The argument really boils down to "How much effort should we employ to ensure that people receive justice on earth?"

OK, with that as the reference, feel free to flame me.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='MagiDragon' timestamp='1305652788' post='2242831']
Seriously, and I'm not sure anyone was bothering to comprehend what was said.

To summarize:
Winchester and Don believe that the DP is acceptable, Havok and Reza do not.

Havok and Reza believe that the remarks of the CCC demonstrate that the Catholic Church does not allow Catholics to accept the DP as permissable. Reza understandably seems confused about the difference between the pastoral sections and the teaching sections of the CCC.

Havok and Reza have implied that Win and Don are disobedient Catholics because they don't accept the pastoral teachings in the CCC. Reza abandons logic to respond to W&D merely claiming 'fail'.

Win and Don respond with personal attacks, which are returned in kind.

Who is right? Shockingly, everyone. (minus the personal attacks.) As stated by the previous pope, the DP should only be a last resort measure. As stated by the current pope, Catholics are allowed to have differences of opinion about what constitutes a last resort.

The disagreement you guys are having is not actually about the death penalty at all, but rather what constitutes "last resort measures." W&D view the DP as a less horrible act than do H&R. Both can be defended: God will give mercy/justice to a soul after the body is dead, justifying W&D; we should strive for justice and mercy in this life, justifying H&R.

The argument really boils down to "How much effort should we employ to ensure that people receive justice on earth?"

OK, with that as the reference, feel free to flame me.
[/quote]


I object to the istatement that I responded with personal attacks. I was attacked often, but I don't recall personally attacking anyone.

[Winchester]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1305517494' post='2242162']
No it's not cool,[/quote]

You misspelled "You're right, it is cool. In fact, you are cool."


[quote] atleast as far as you representing your religious faith.

[/quote]
You actually don't seem to have my faith completely nailed down, so I'm going to keep my personal opinion that you probably lost your high school girl friend to a good looking Catholic guy and are still really bitter about it to myself.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305551390' post='2242251']
if prison escapes happen a lot more then we think like you say, prove it with numbers.

[/quote]
http://www.aele.org/law/Digests/jail35.html

Here is a list cases of liability regarding escaped criminals which commited crimes while they were escaped, it is not a comprahensive list, it is a list of court decisions which about liablity. However, i think it should suffice to prove that placing someone in jail is not absolute protection for society.

Placing them in a grave is.


Another case relevent to the discussion.


http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-08-09/news/27072208_1_convicts-second-degree-murder-double-murder

Tracy Province was serving life for murder.

Linda and Gary Haas are now dead, their bodies desecrated becuase Tracy Province was imprisoned rather than put to death.

Men wrongly convicted are not the only innocents in the world.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305653277' post='2242836']
I object to the istatement that I responded with personal attacks. I was attacked often, but I don't recall personally attacking anyone.
[/quote]

Hmmm . . . after looking it over, that seems to be a fair objection, I misremembered. My apologies.

Winchester, havok, Reza, did my summary seem fair? I'm working on this objectivity thingy. :D

BTW, Reza, 2 things:
1.) What is your religious affiliation? You seem to think like a Catholic.
2.) Roman Catholic Church is not a religion; "Roman" is a rite within the Catholic Church. There are 22ish other rites. Collectively, these rites form a single religion known as "Catholic." Roman Catholic Church is a pejorative invented by protestants during their deformation of Christianity to attack Catholics. Roman Catholic church refers to a church building that happens to belong to the Roman Rite.

Peace,
Joe

[Winchester]

Okay, I got warned, so I feel I should make amends.
[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RifFBTLFflw/TY_mNoHn-lI/AAAAAAAABPs/1_82cnan-n0/s1600/douchebag2.jpg[/img]
[size="5"][color="#FF0000"]^NOT Reza^[/color][/size] Reza does not have a tan.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305677970' post='2243022']
Okay, I got warned, so I feel I should make amends.
[img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RifFBTLFflw/TY_mNoHn-lI/AAAAAAAABPs/1_82cnan-n0/s1600/douchebag2.jpg[/img]
[size="5"][color="#FF0000"]^NOT Reza^[/color][/size] Reza does not have a tan.
[/quote]

*sighs/facepalm*

[havok579257]

[quote name='MagiDragon' timestamp='1305659209' post='2242901']
Hmmm . . . after looking it over, that seems to be a fair objection, I misremembered. My apologies.

Winchester, havok, Reza, did my summary seem fair? I'm working on this objectivity thingy. :D

BTW, Reza, 2 things:
1.) What is your religious affiliation? You seem to think like a Catholic.
2.) Roman Catholic Church is not a religion; "Roman" is a rite within the Catholic Church. There are 22ish other rites. Collectively, these rites form a single religion known as "Catholic." Roman Catholic Church is a pejorative invented by protestants during their deformation of Christianity to attack Catholics. Roman Catholic church refers to a church building that happens to belong to the Roman Rite.

Peace,
Joe
[/quote]


almost. i don't deny that the death penalty can be used morally. i just say in america the death penalty should be used extremely rarely and not like it is used today. all the people executed in america did not fit the criteria the ccc puts forward for use of the death penalty. america does not use the ccc as guidelines for executions so i think its funny when people use american executions as an example of approved executions by the ccc.

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305730972' post='2243204']
almost. i don't deny that the death penalty can be used morally. i just say in america the death penalty should be used extremely rarely and not like it is used today. all the people executed in america did not fit the criteria the ccc puts forward for use of the death penalty. america does not use the ccc as guidelines for executions so i think its funny when people use american executions as an example of approved executions by the ccc.
[/quote]
Sounds fair. I don't think that W&D would have any problem with that statement. I *do* think that 'funny' is the wrong word to use in your last sentence . . . it implies that you're deriding anyone that would look at it that way. Perhaps a slightly more careful choice of words would avoid the appearance of belligerence. Don tends to defend really controversial topics, and Winchester just *is* controversial, but regardless of anything else, they both know their stuff, and seem to be good obedient-to-the-Magesterium Catholics.

I, myself, think that the DP should remain legal in the US, but be used less often than it is used. I have no problem with people arguing otherwise so long as they don't say that I'm being disobedient for maintaining my stance.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]if prison escapes happen a lot more then we think like you say, prove it with numbers.[/quote]

Did my post suffice to answer this issue?