Abortion - States Rights

[havok579257]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305516099' post='2242148']
Are you reallyprepared to agree with every dicsinplinary teaching of the Church, not dogmatic, nor doctrinal but merely disiplinary and pastorial? Are you sure?
[/quote]


see my post above. is that not church teaching? that specific part i quoted.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305516330' post='2242152']
see my post above. is that not church teaching? that specific part i quoted.
[/quote]


See my edit.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305516319' post='2242151']
Yes this is the teeaching and isnot pastorial advice.

Yes I agree with that totally.

I am not,certianly there are people who seek to use it for vengence, that does not mean that it is not fitting to use it for its proper purpose

I do not believethe american prison system is capable of effectively defending human lives against an unjust agressor without torturing many many more people than the death penalty applies to.
[/quote]


i don;t understand your last statement.

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305516381' post='2242153']
See my edit.
[/quote]


got it.

[Don John of Austria]

The only way they could do it was by immorally punishing everyone in prision. placing all violent offenders in solitary and the like. making a man be alone for years at a time is torture and immoral. This would have tobe done to tens of thousands of men

[havok579257]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305516764' post='2242158']
The only way they could do it was by immorally punishing everyone in prision. placing all violent offenders in solitary and the like. making a man be alone for years at a time is torture and immoral. This would have tobe done to tens of thousands of men
[/quote]


so spending years in solitary confinment is worse than death? i can't agree.

i see nothing immoral about putting a prisoner in solitary confinement. i think its crazy that prisoners have it better than some americans do. some of the emenities they get make prison not seem so bad.

[RezaMikhaeil]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305514497' post='2242130']
You know, there's a post a in another thread for you. That post was for ampax. Everything is not about you.

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=112789&view=findpost&p=2242101"]http://www.phatmass....dpost&p=2242101[/url]

See? Everything's cool, now.
[/quote]

No it's not cool, atleast as far as you representing your religious faith.


[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305514802' post='2242135']
sav·age 
adjective, noun, verb, -aged, -ag·ing.
–adjective
1. fierce, ferocious, or cruel; untamed: savage beasts.
2. uncivilized; barbarous: savage tribes.
3. enraged or furiously angry, as a person.


Seems like exactly what your saying.[/quote] Seems to me that you can't read and comprehend what I have written.

[quote]I did indeed say that you can be convicted by a single witness, not necessarily a single expert, but yes , 2 people can stand up and say different things and if the jury believes one over the other that is enough to convict. Makes many trials even possible to have.
[/quote]

What a great way to put innocent people to death.

[quote]The Texas Governor has no power to give clemency, he just doesn't have it. You can think all you want that he does, You can sit at your computer and scream about how it is a NAtional check... blah blah blah.... but the FACT is the Governor of Texas has very little power, and cannot grant Clemency. He can grant a pardon only when a State Board recomends it. He may grant 1 and only 1 30 day stay of execution. That is it.
[/quote]

Yes he does, as I cited specific instances in which he used it and I even looked up the law. Clemancy is under his authorty but I'm not going to sit here and argue with you about it when it's well documented and many people have been given such in the state of texas.

[quote]Members of the Magestirium of my Church do not believe that the death penalty is more effective at protecting people. But they are not authoritive in that matter. Neither have they eclared that it is a matter of faith and morals that one must hold this position.
[/quote] If you say so...

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305517027' post='2242160']
so spending years in solitary confinment is worse than death? i can't agree.

i see nothing immoral about putting a prisoner in solitary confinement. i think its crazy that prisoners have it better than some americans do. some of the emenities they get make prison not seem so bad.
[/quote]


Well I understand that you do not agee, and this is where that disagreement in application comes in.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305514802' post='2242135']
Members of the Magestirium of my Church do not believe that the death penalty is more effective at protecting people. But they are not authoritive in that matter. Neither have they eclared that it is a matter of faith and morals that one must hold this position.
[/quote]

Just curious, i'm really not trying to be antagonistic, but how is the death penalty not a matter of morality?

[havok579257]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305518021' post='2242165']
Well I understand that you do not agee, and this is where that disagreement in application comes in.
[/quote]



in no way can anyone justify that some years in solitary confinement is worse than death. i mean at how many years in solitary confinement is it worse than death? 10 years? 2 years? 6 months? 2 days?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1305517494' post='2242162']

Yes he does, as I cited specific instances in which he used it and I even looked up the law. Clemancy is under his authorty but I'm not going to sit here and argue with you about it when it's well documented and many people have been given such in the state of texas.

[/quote]


The only Clemency inthe Governors power is to issue 1 thrity day reprieve. Thats it. That is his clemency power.
That is it. Nothing else. He simply has no other power.

I realize you think he should have given his stay to get the Hair DNA checked. If his Staff did not tell him that was what it was for, I can't imagine why he would think it was necessary.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305518472' post='2242170']
The only Clemency inthe Governors power is to issue 1 thrity day reprieve. Thats it. That is his clemency power.
That is it. Nothing else. He simply has no other power.

I realize you think he should have given his stay to get the Hair DNA checked. If his Staff did not tell him that was what it was for, I can't imagine why he would think it was necessary.
[/quote]


i would say this case puts in great doubt how accurate the death penalty is in america. one innocent man executed is one to many.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305518471' post='2242169']
in no way can anyone justify that some years in solitary confinement is worse than death. i mean at how many years in solitary confinement is it worse than death? 10 years? 2 years? 6 months? 2 days?
[/quote]


Well first, I'd say the amount that makes you crazy. which is a fairly real result of long term solitary.

But putting 10,000 men in solitary, instead of putting a few people to death, yeah I think using the death penalty is a much more moral choice.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' timestamp='1305518616' post='2242172']
Well first, I'd say the amount that makes you crazy. which is a fairly real result of long term solitary.

But putting 10,000 men in solitary, instead of putting a few people to death, yeah I think using the death penalty is a much more moral choice.
[/quote]

that is the most subjective line of arguement its almost laughable. someone could be in there 1 month and that could make them crazy. so then by that logic if anyone were going to be put into solitary confinement for longer then 29 days it would be better to just execute them.


what's a few people? how do we decide who the few people are? even with executions today at the rate we do them, violent crimes in prison is still rampant. under your theory, the only way to do it would be to execute every single person who commits a violent act while in prison. your talking about increasing the executions by drastic numbers.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305518609' post='2242171']
i would say this case puts in great doubt how accurate the death penalty is in america. one innocent man executed is one to many.
[/quote]


except in neither of the cases discussed has anyone been proven innocent.


Innocents die all the time as a result of policy decisions, we do not intentionally kill innocents, but it happens. if a policy which prevents the immoral placement of tens of thousands in inhuman treatment has collateral damage on rare occasions, so be it. As long as everything has been done fairly to determine guilt, the man was given a fair trial and all are working in good faith that is all one can ask.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1305518873' post='2242175']
that is the most subjective line of arguement its almost laughable. someone could be in there 1 month and that could make them crazy. so then by that logic if anyone were going to be put into solitary confinement for longer then 29 days it would be better to just execute them.


what's a few people? how do we decide who the few people are? even with executions today at the rate we do them, violent crimes in prison is still rampant. under your theory, the only way to do it would be to execute every single person who commits a violent act while in prison. your talking about increasing the executions by drastic numbers.
[/quote]
putting an individual in solitary where he is observed and taken out if he starts to show signs of pscychosis is one thing, making a policy of placing everyone in solitary is quite different.